Exploring Unschooling 6o122n

This week, we share a conversation that Pam had with Adrian Peace-Williams back in 2019. At the time, she was 24 years old and in college. Pam and Adrian talked about her childhood unschooling, her choice to go to high school, her years of traveling the world after high school, where she was at the moment in her journey, and lots more. Her understanding of herself and her needs was so inspirational. We hope you enjoy the conversation! QUESTIONS FOR ADRIAN Can you share with us a bit about you and your family? What were some of your interests growing up and how did you pursue them? Over the years, was there a time you found your unschooling lifestyle challenging? How did you move through that? I know that you enjoy traveling. What is it that you love about it and can you tell us some of the trips you’ve been on? You’re in college (university?) now and home for the holidays. What are you studying and how did you find the transition to school? What do you appreciate most about living an unschooling lifestyle growing up? What are your plans for the next year or two? As a grown unschooler, what piece of advice would you like to share with unschooling parents who are just starting out on this journey? THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more! We invite you to us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation! Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling? Listen to our conversation on YouTube. Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram. Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling. TRANSCRIPT PAM: Welcome, I am Pam Laricchia from LivingJoyfully.ca and today I am here with Adrian Peace-Williams. Hi, Adrian! ADRIAN: Hi, Pam. How is it going? PAM: It is going wonderfully. Adrian, if people do not know, is one of my friend Alex’s daughters. I have enjoyed getting little updates over the years as to what she has been up to. I am thrilled that she agreed to come on the podcast to talk about her experience growing up unschooling. So, to get us started Adrian … Can you share a little bit about you and your family? ADRIAN: Yes. I grew up in Nova Scotia and I have two sisters. I am the middle child and I am twenty-four at the moment. I was homeschooled up until I was fifteen then I decided to go to public school. I did that and that was a whole adventure. I am attending university. We live in the woods. I love being outside and reading books and learning and I love my sisters dearly and my parents as well of course. Pam: What were some of your interests growing up and how did you pursue them? ADRIAN: It changed of course as I grew up but a theme for my whole life has been the outdoors. That was a big one for me when I was little too. Luckily, I did grow up surrounded by woods in a pretty rural location. I was able to go outside all the time and play in the woods. My parents would facilitate that and bring home books on trees and birds and plants. I would kind of look at them and think this is cool but mostly just wanted to be outside. Now I am valuing those books a little bit more and turning more towards the books. I want to know all the details now. Being outside was kind of an easy one. I could just be outside. I also loved drawing and painting and so I would do that a lot as a kid. Mum would often take us to art galleries so I could see different paintings. We had painting board games where we could pretend it was an art auction kind of thing. We actually did that the other day too. PAM: Masterpiece, we loved that game. ADRIAN: Yes, Masterpiece. We would just draw and paint a lot. I went to a lot of art camps as well. We could choose what camps in the summer we wanted to go to and I would usually go to the visual arts and also theater too. I really enjoyed being in theater so I took some improv classes. Again, mum and dad would say, “Okay these are all these classes you can take and here are your options.” I would always choose an arts one. I took painting classes. As I got older, I got involved in community theater which was amazing. One of them is just a woman’s group where they put on a variety show every year. The profits go to woman’s charities that they pick. So, I love that. I liked to read too, so I would read a lot or get mum and dad to read to me. I loved reading so much. I would actually sit for so long and being read to, that mum and dad were like, “Okay I cannot read to you any more I am too tired.” I would want them to sit there for like six hours and just read to me. So, eventually I got more into audio books and then just reading to myself. PAM: I that transition for my daughter, Lissy too. I was reading the Harry Potter books to them for the longest time, for hours. Then my voice would go and even water was not helping it. Then we found the audio books at the library and then, she could just go for hours and hours and hours. ADRIAN: Yes, same. I think those were my main things that I love. Of course, just playing games and hanging with family. Canoeing, I loved camping too. I would always if there was an option of, “Hey what do we want to do as a family?” I would always choose to all go camping together and be outside. Nature awareness camps too, those I loved. I learned a lot through them. PAM: That is awesome. Was there a time over the years that you found your unschooling lifestyle challenging? ADRIAN: Yes, I was thinking about this question, because of course life is challenging. And it is also hard to separate okay is this because I was homeschooled or unschooled or is this just because life is hard. PAM: It is true, it is just about living, it is true. ADRIAN: I think I thought about my transitions in life. And those, I think have been the hardest times for me. Transitioning from when I chose to go to high school. I was fifteen and kind of felt I needed something more but I did not know what that was. And so how do I move forward through that? Okay, what I am doing now is not quite working, how do I figure that out? Then once I did graduate high school and was like okay, I have done this stage of my life, what is next? Then after traveling a lot I am like, okay I am ready to not travel but what is the next thing? It was these transitions I think, that have been the points in my life that was kind of hard to go through. I think the things that helped me were ing what brings me joy and what my values are and giving myself time to listen to myself. I think I learned I personally take a lot of time to come to decisions sometimes. It is important for me to give myself that time. And to that is okay to make a mistake and decide something and start it and then no this obviously is not the right thing. Then do something else and maybe that keeps happening and then eventually you will find it and you will love it. PAM: Yes, you hone in on things over time but through your experiences right but I think that time piece is such an important point. Because you do have to keep giving yourself permission because that is not something society kind of in general s, does it? It is like boom, boom, boom, right? ADRIAN: Yes, and I think during those transition periods, sometimes I can feel this pressure. Okay, what are you going to do, what are you going to do now? I think ing to protect myself from that and realize I am going through my own journey right now and that is okay and I do not need to please these people in society that think I need to being doing this or be doing that. I think giving myself time and just ing yes, what brings me joy and trying to follow those things, trying to follow those paths. PAM: I think that is such a great observation about what works for you. Knowing that it is okay to not know and that is okay to just kind of follow that joy. And say okay, ‘I think I am going to try this that might bring something into my life that I will value.’ Then it is like, no, that is enough. That is not what I was looking for out of that experience, right? We are, as a society, goal obsessed. I need to know where I am going and I need to doggedly pursue that all the time. And to change my mind or make mistakes are some horrific thing, you know. ADRIAN: Yes. PAM: Rather than just life experience and me getting to know myself better and what brings me joy better. ADRIAN: I think I always thought if I am doing something that makes me happy, I will probably make the world a little more happy because I will be happy and that will just be spread. PAM: It trickles out. ADRIAN: I thought that was a good way to guide myself. But I think it might be different for other people too. PAM: Oh yes and all you can share is your own experience, right? ADRIAN: Yes PAM: So yes, you mentioned that you know it was one of those transition pieces where you decided to try out high school. Could you talk a little bit more about that experience? Parents might be curious about how you found that transition. ADRIAN: Yes, it was really interesting actually and relatively easy, I guess. I think I was at a point where I had a couple of friends that had moved away and I was kind of lacking in my social community. I had a couple of friends who were in high school and thought you know what, this could be interesting, why not just try this. I think I went into it with a very casual mindset. Which going back is a really interesting thing and not a lot of people have that experience with high school. It was like a summer camp or like a class, you know. I thought, I will just try this and see how it goes and if I do not like it, I can just stop because I am getting a perfectly great education. PAM: Because you just can. ADRIAN: Because I just can and so I think just having that relaxedness or relaxation around it was really helpful. I did not feel a lot of pressure necessarily. I think I had some misconceptions about high school. Like I thought okay these people have been in class learning their whole lives. I was curious to see what my skill level would be. Because we were very free in of our structured learning which is very different from high school. When I went, I picked classes that I thought I would be interested in. Which were some art, some drama and some food science I think and an ocean science class. I realized that I know how to learn and they are teaching and so it was actually really easy. Oh, I just need to know how to listen and how to take notes or how to ask questions, how to talk to people and have fun.  I got this, I know these things. PAM: I love that. ADRIAN: Yes, so it was really cool that I got to have that experience. I also had a lot of help too. My older sister also transitioned to high school and she was there and I had some good friends there so they were kind of able to help. I did know people so I was not going into this totally new space. And my teachers also were amazing. My spelling and reading was not at the level of my other peers and they could have been much harder on me about my spelling but I think they knew that I understood all the material and they could see it was getting better and it was. I found that it easily got better really quickly and was fine. I also had lots of help from my community with that transition. I met lots of great people too. It was interesting to get to know a lot of people my own age. I think homeschooling I had a lot of friends that were a bit older and a bit younger and kind of usually hang out in a group of multi-aged people. And so, then we were all the same age and it was interesting. I think I realized that Nova Scotia where I grew up is a different too. I was exposed to a very different community which I really valued. I think it made me realize that I knew myself a lot better than I thought I did. Or I did not even realize that I knew myself but when I was with a lot of other people that were still learning who they were it made me realize, ‘Oh, I have had this time to just be with myself and not always be comparing myself to people.’ Yes, I think I realized I had a bigger sense of self than I knew I did. PAM: Yes. ADRIAN: Which was really interesting. Yes. I went in at half way through grade ten and then I did eleven and twelve. By year twelve, I think hard part for me, I lost a bit of the mentality that my parents tried to teach me through homeschooling. I think I started caring too much about the things I did not actually care about. If that makes sense. PAM: Yes, yes. ADRIAN: Yes, but I am also glad that I had that experience too, I also learned from that. I think now I know a little bit. Okay this is what a public school can be like and this is what homeschooling can be like. Now I have these two perspectives which have been really valuable in my life as well. PAM: That is so interesting. I love the way you were able to articulate that. Those are really great pieces to differentiate between the different kind of lifestyles and be able to choose it. And to choose to stay, to know that you could leave if you wanted to helps you almost be there to observe and to notice those things. You knew. It just feels like it is a choice. You come to the whole experience with a different mindset.  A more open kind of mindset. It sounds like that helped you. ADRIAN: Yes, completely. PAM: Became more self-aware too about yourself within the bigger picture of it all, right? ADRIAN: Yes, and I think it was a concept that a lot of my peers had never considered. When I was explaining, I am here to kind of try it, they were like, “What? Oh my god.” Some really interesting, fun conversations came out of it. It was almost comical because I am just doing this. It was good. PAM: Oh yes. That is so interesting, so interesting. Okay so after your high school experience you ended up doing some extended traveling, right? And that was part of that transition out again. I would love to hear a little bit about your traveling time. What is it that you loved about it? And maybe a little bit about the trips that you went on. ADRIAN: Yes. I did a lot of traveling and I guess it was a transition. I was done with high school and I think I knew that I needed to ground myself a bit from that experience because towards the end I was feeling not quite myself. I was ready for a less structured learning environment. I just got caught up and I was like, ‘Okay, I just need to see the world a little bit.’ Because I traveled a bit with my family when I was young and really liked it. Liked seeing new places and learning new things so yes, traveling sounded really good because what is the rest of the world doing. I am here but what else is going on. So, I went to New Zealand with Unschooling Adventures which is run out of the states. I went there for six weeks. It was with a youth travel program, they organized the trip. We were in charge of certain things. The goal of it was to learn how to backpack and hike and travel as a young person and how to do that. And how to meet other young unschoolers or people who had been in public school—other young people who were wanting to travel and learn more about the world. It was fantastic. We backpacked across the south island of New Zealand. I learned how to live out of a backpack and hike with one and how to cook on the trial and how to navigate from different places. How to stay in a hostel and all these traveling skills and also it just really reminded me that there are so many different ways to look at the world and be in the world. It was really lovely after high school where I think my world view narrowed at the end. This really broadened it and my leaders especially were just amazing people and had great stories and great experiences that they shared with me. I was like, ‘YES! This is fantastic!’ It was perfect. It was what I needed. We were outside all the time hiking in the woods, which I loved. So, that was a great experience. After I was like okay, I want to keep doing this. I was not done with this style of learning and traveling. I guess I thought this was really cool to just be able to live out of a backpack and this is all you need. I liked that idea of being really minimal because I think when you have less stuff you are able to see more and experience more because you are not caught up in a lot of the things that you have. But I wanted to challenge myself a little bit so I said okay, let’s do this on my own. Let’s not go with a travel program. I thought Europe was a good place to start because a lot people speak some English but I also want to learn a bit of French and Spanish. My ancestors are from England and Whales and I thought it would be really interesting to go to Europe. So, I worked at a farm for a season and went in the winter. I booked my flight and packed by backpack, just one. I went to Europe for three months and booked some work stays, some work exchanges I should say. I did that in New Zealand and was like oh this is a really cool way to get to know a place because I think it is really nice to stay with someone who lives in the place that you are visiting. I find it gets a more local perspective and you do not just feel like a tourist. You actually get to be in the place. So yes, I did some work exchanges on a farm and with a couple of families. I did some hiking and sight-seeing. My mom and my younger sister came to visit me for a little bit. I went to Spain and and Italy and England. PAM: Wow. ADRIAN: It was fantastic. It was probably one of my most challenging trips. I learned a lot about myself because being alone in a foreign country with just a backpack you just, it is just like, ‘Okay…I am just doing this I guess and I need to figure it out. Where am I going to stay? How am I going to get there? How am I going to afford that? What am I going to eat?’ I feel like I started to connect more with my cooking because that was probably the first time that I was like really totally in charge of my own food. Which was interesting because before I was either living with my family where it was more collaborative or traveling with a group where it was more in a communal way. So, this was like, ‘Okay yes, I need to figure out how I want to eat and cook. Where am I going to do that, in hostels?’ You know and trains and meeting new people and speaking new languages. I definitely learned a lot. I think my most important lesson from that trip was that people really matter to me. I went alone and I had this idea about proving something to myself, that I can do this alone. I standing looking at the Colosseum in Rome and being like okay this is really cool. I have seen this in tons of movies, this extremely famous thing, so much history. But I do not have anyone to share this with. So, what does this mean? It was kind of like, not much. This doesn’t really mean anything right now because I miss my sisters and yes, I just missed that connection of sharing with people. PAM: Sharing an experience. ADRIAN: It was really interesting, yes. But I think it was really good for me to go through those things alone and to realize those connections are really important to me. PAM: Isn’t that a wonderful way to learn these things about ourselves, right? Is to have experiences. To have experiences that like you were talking about before, these are not mistakes or wrong. These are things we are learning along the way. That make us more whole because we are learning more about ourselves. Now that we know more, our next step can be closer toward the stuff that we know more about. Does that make sense? ADRIAN:  Totally, totally and so yes, my next traveling, I knew I wanted connections. I also realized that I really enjoyed learning Spanish. So, I went to Nicaragua and volunteered for about six weeks in the same place. Because I was also moving around a lot in Europe and that ended up being exhausting. I wanted to connect with one place and so I went and volunteered and got to know a community and people and took Spanish lessons and that was incredible. It was awesome to really see into a different kind of world and speak a different language. It was on a permaculture farm for a bit so also following my interest of being outside and working with my hands. Then also working with kids a little bit and doing art too, I also like doing art.  So, it was teaching art classes for about week and then working on a permaculture farm for about a month. It was lovely. I was like, ‘This is it!’ Because I am coming to this place and actually feeling like I am contributing to the community a little bit. Instead of just being a tourist. Which is also great to do sometimes; but it felt more meaningful to me to make those connections. PAM: Yes, exactly it is all about the stuff that we are learning about ourselves and what is meaningful to us. Like you said before, it is not a judgement on other people making other choices because those are the choices that work for them. It is that whole piece that you figure out that we are all individuals and as we you know step towards our joy, does not mean that everybody else’s steps need to look same or that our steps are wrong because they look different. It is a bigger picture appreciation, isn’t it, for everybody doing what they love. ADRIAN: Yes, and I think I came across, like you were saying, like everyone is following their own joy. Because a lot of my peers were going to university or college at that time and that was the mainstream that everyone was going towards. But, I kept choosing to not do that I guess and to keep working and traveling. I was working really hard in between all my trips. I think that was kind of cool for me because it taught me that I can keep making my own decisions and that is okay. And to keep following what I love has turned out really well. It was nice, it was like a continual affirmation of yes, you can keep making your own choices and everyone is doing what they want to do and you do not have to do what other people are doing. Or you can and that is great too but as long as it feels right in your heart. PAM: Yes, as long as it is your choice. Because now you have made the transition right now you are going to university, right? So, do you want to talk a little bit about that transition and how that has been going for you? ADRIAN: Yes, yes for sure. Now I am in university and there is also a certain relaxation about that. It is interesting to have been doing something that not a lot of other people are doing for it was about five years that I was working and traveling and now I am doing something where a lot of other people are doing that. And to notice being in those two different worlds is really interesting. After traveling and working, I had been working was on organic farm and I loved it there. When I first started working on farms, I think it was my first job when I was twelve or something which was mostly weeding or mowing a lawn, it was just for pocket change. I live in a rural place too so there are not a lot of other jobs available. But over the years I kept working on farms and a couple different farms and this one that I worked at for about five seasons now, I do not work there anymore but I did. Something about the farm, I think it was the perfect size and the family is amazing but I got to see the whole picture of the farm. I got to be a part of different parts of it which is something that I really like. I think my brain likes to look at the big picture and then put different pieces into it and see how it all works together. I love being outside and working with my hands and I got to work at the farmer’s market where we sell our products and see how my work was connecting to the community. Which is something also I learned that I really value. Feeling like am helping my community and contributing to the world in a positive way. Because I love being outside and I love being in the natural world I realized I guess, by working through this farm that it’s connected to a lot of the things that I love. I took a summer off and did more traveling in Canada. I did a road trip with my friend. The whole summer I was thinking about the farm. What is happening and what is growing and is this turning out? I miss it so much. I just realized that I love it but also that I had been working at this one farm for a while and feeling like, I wanted more of a challenge. I need to make a shift so I am taking on more responsibility or like I am learning more. Because I feel like I know how to weed really fast and I know how to harvest but I want to know how do I plan this and what is happening in the soil. How do I market my produce or these more theoretical or different than just the day to day stuff? I was thinking bigger picture things and I was thinking I like learning with a group. I kind of just came to where yes, university is the way that I want to learn about this. I also thought that I could just start reading books and start farming because you do not really need a degree to farm you can just do it and it will work or it won’t. I was kind of like, ‘No, I think I want this more structured way.’ I do like some structure in my learning. Yes, I wanted to be with other young people who were into farming. I knew we could have lots of conversations. So, now I am going to Trent University in Peterborough, Ontario. I chose that program because it focuses on sustainable and alternative forms of agriculture which is what I am interested in. Instead of the more large scale industrial farming. I really, really like it. I was a little nervous but more just because I was moving to a different town and community. Also, because I have not been in kind of this system for a long time and how is that going to go. But really it was fine because I think I know how to learn and I know how to reach out for help. Luckily, I have amazing parents that help me a lot and the school is great too. There are so many resources that I can use. It has been really good. I think the thing that has been important for me is to find peers that also have a similarish mindset around school. I was kind of like okay, what are my peers going to be like are they all going to be younger more like eighteen coming right out of high school? Will they be older, will they be mixed? But I found that it is more diverse actually with my program. I think a lot of people come to agriculture maybe at a bit of an older age instead of right out of high school. But, it is a diverse group which I really appreciate because they have lots of different perspectives that we can talk about. Not everyone wants to farm, some people are just interested in agriculture and food policy and some people do want to farm and some people they want to do livestock or vegetables so it is diverse which I really appreciate. PAM: That is lovely. So, it sounds like you are enjoying that so far. ADRIAN: Yes, I feel like the program has been really perfect because it is not very hands on but that is kind of great because I have already had a lot of hands on experience. I am taking an organic agricultural class next semester which I think is going to talk about policy and certification methods and then environmental implications of agriculture. So, how are agriculture and the environment related, which they completely are. Last semester I took world food systems so looking at how does food move globally and how is it traded. I think that is really important for me to know. All the classes so far have been like, ‘Yes! This is what I need to know, this is important for me to learn.’ But I still do question how important graduating is to me. Because there are some classes that are required for my degree that I do not necessarily think will be extremely interesting. So, I am still trying to figure out, how important that piece of paper is to me and how valuable those classes will be. Is it not interesting because I do not know anything about it or because I haven’t tried it or is it because I really just do not want to take this class? How do I work with this? Because there still is a lot of pressure from within the university to get that degree. That is the whole program is setting you up to do, that is the point. PAM: That is their job. ADRIAN: Right that is their job but my point is learning and using this information to hopefully one day apply it to my life as a person growing food for my community. So, there are slightly different agendas happening here. It is sometimes tricky to balance that but so far it is good. I think it will be more towards the end of my degree when I how it will work. I do not ever want to sacrifice my time for something that I won’t necessarily care about because I think towards the end of high school that was what was happening. It was just doing this for someone else now not necessarily myself so it did not feel good. So, I am wary I guess and cautious to observer, this is what the university wants or this is what I want? Just make sure I keep on my path here. PAM: Oh, Adrian I love all those questions you are asking yourself. That is perfect and that is how you are going to kind of feel your way through it. I mean, that is how you feel your way through life, right? Really because there are always pushes and pulls and things from various directions. You know, what it’s like to really get clear on what we want out of it. What you want out of it and the implications as you said, you know that tendency to easily get sucked into someone else’s agenda. That even sounds too harsh but other people’s agendas, they are everywhere. It is not necessarily a bad thing but being aware of it so that even if you choose to not lose sight of the fact that you are choosing, right? ADRIAN: Yes. PAM: Because you can easily kind of slip over into, I know I am not making these choices from a personal perspective anymore they are choices that have showed up here and I fell into it. You are asking yourself such wonderful questions, it is fascinating. Thanks so much for sharing. What do you appreciate now, from your perspective at this moment, most about living an unschooling lifestyle growing up? Or just being free to live because like we were talking about before to label what is unschooling versus you know what is living, eventually it is just living your life doesn’t it. ADRIAN: Yes, it does. PAM: What do you appreciate most about just being able to live your life just growing up? ADRIAN: I think it is time and space that was really important for me. And freedom and not being constantly judged and evaluated on my decisions and choices. I was really, of course when we were working as a family so not totally free like I had to work with my sisters. PAM: Yes, in the context. ADRIAN: Yes, within the context but yes, the freedom to get to know myself. And I did not even know I was getting to know myself. I did not even realize that was happening until I was in a situation where that had not happened for people. I think yes, the space to just be, the space to have time to listen to myself and know and learn how to listen to myself. Learn how I work and how I learn what brings me joy, what does not, how do I deal with making these decisions? Having the time to even think about that. I do not want to take this class, okay why do I not want to take this class? So, the time; the time is so amazing. The time to just be and learn how to be. Be in relationship with nature and my family and my community. I think if I just explore, time to be a kid a play. PAM: That leads nicely into our last question. As a grown unschooler, what piece of advice would you like to share with unschooling parents who are maybe just starting out on this journey? ADRIAN: I thought about this question and it is tricky because I think every parent and every kid and every community and every environment is different so it is going to look different for everyone. I think what I came to, the things that I have valued the most from my experience of being unschooled was the tools that I have now. I think being an unschooler got me and the parents that I have got me those tools. Like how do I listen? How do I communicate my needs? How do I listen to other people’s needs? How do I know how to ask questions when I do not know the answers? How do I go into a new situation feeling okay and feeling that I can do this? Even if I do not know how to do it, I know what next steps are; how to figure it out. Okay, this did not work where do I go from here? How to live and how to love too. How to love myself and how to love other people. How to figure my way around a city and how to take care of other kids. How to have a conversation with an adult when I am there. I think knowing how to learn is much more important than knowing math or knowing how to write an essay perfectly. Because if you know how to learn then you can go into most any situation and figure it out. And know how to have the confidence that that is okay. You know, teach your kid that it is okay to not know something, it is okay to be wrong or make mistakes and it is okay to do these things. Those are the situations where you learn. Because if you know how to learn and you know how to fail, then you can do anything, I think. Because if it is okay to keep failing eventually you are going get it and you are going to learn. How to love and work in a team. And listen to your kid because they will tell you what they need even if it is not verbally. I think that yes, letting them be the leaders is really important too. Focusing on skills instead of specific things and then just following your kid I think are important things. PAM: Oh, my goodness Adrian, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. It was so much fun, thank you, thank you. ADRIAN: Yes, thank you too Pam it was really, really nice. PAM: Oh, good I am glad you enjoyed it. ADRIAN: Yes, it is fun, it is. PAM: Best of luck next semester. I hope you really enjoy your classes. ADRIAN: Thank you, thank you. Yes, I am excited. PAM: Thanks again. ADRIAN: Thanks Pam, bye.

For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, People Are Different. It’s natural to assume that other people see the world in the same way we do, and that they experience and process things just like we do. But in reality, we are all unique. And while we are our own unique beings, there are some general traits that can be helpful to understand. Not understanding these simple differences can lead to a lot of hurt feelings and misunderstandings. Pam and Anna talk about a few of the biggies that tend to come up in relationships, such as introversion and extroversion, internal and external processing, and sensitivities. Diving into some of these differences can be so helpful in understanding our loved ones and in avoiding some of the common miscommunication that can happen between us. We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships! THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more! We invite you to us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation! Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling? Listen to our conversation on YouTube. Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram. Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling. EPISODE QUESTIONS Do you feel you are more introverted or extroverted? How about the most important people in your life? How do you see them and how do they see themselves? Are you more of an internal or external processor? What about those around you? Have you seen this cause confusion before? What areas of sensitivities or just preferences do you wish your partner or friends understood about you? Ask them if they have any that they’d like you to know. What is your love language (physical touch, words of affirmation, gifts, quality time, acts of service)? Your partner’s? Your child’s? Myers-Briggs Personality Test: https://www.truity.com/test/type-finder-personality-test-new Love Languages Quiz: https://5lovelanguages.com/quizzes/love-language Highly Sensitive Person Test: https://hsperson.com/test/highly-sensitive-test/ TRANSCRIPT ANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! We are excited you found us and are interested in exploring our relationships—who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world. In today’s episode, we’re going to talk about how different people can be. I think it’s a human nature thing to just automatically assume that other people see and experience the world in the same way that we do. And in reality, we are all unique. And while we really and truly are our own unique beings, there are some general traits that can be helpful to understand. Not understanding these simple differences can lead to a lot of hurt feelings and misunderstandings. So, I’m excited that we’re going to talk about a few of the biggies that tend to come up in relationships, especially. Let’s start with introverts and extroverts. There are a lot of misconceptions about this one. Many think that people who are more introverted are shy and if they just got some skills, they would be extroverted. I’m here to say no. I’m an introvert. I am not at all shy. I can speak to a crowd of 500 people and not break a sweat, but put me at a party and I’m usually in another room with the dogs. It’s interesting, because even if it’s a party where I do talk and make a lot of connections and have a wonderful time, when I come home, I’m tired, exhausted sometimes, and I just need some quiet space to decompress and bring back up my energy, while for my more extroverted friends, they are super recharged by the party and want to have more conversations. They’re raring to go! And it’s good to keep in mind that this is a spectrum, but it’s still helpful to understand you and your partner’s tendencies when it comes to this, because how this plays out in relationships is that, if you have one who’s more one type than the other, it can be a lot of misunderstandings. The more introverted partner comes home from work and just wants to retreat, while the more extroverted partner is waiting at the door and they want to talk about their day and connect right away. And so, what can feel like a slight and even result in some hurt feelings is really just a personality difference. And it’s easily solved for by allowing some transition time and then connecting. I have a close friend who’s an extrovert, big time, and she will actually start to have low energy and start feeling depressed, even thinks she’s coming down with some kind of an illness, and then we realize she hasn’t seen people in a couple days and a quick dose of in-person interaction and she perks right back up. So, understanding these bits can help us help each other and understand each other. And watching how our energy ebbs and flows with interaction is one clue.  PAM: Oh, definitely, definitely. I think the energy piece can be such a great clue about where you lie on that introvert/extrovert spectrum. And yes, ing it’s a spectrum, not a slot, is very helpful. So, after a group event, like say a family get-together, dinner with friends, or a holiday party, how do you feel? Just take a moment. Are you energized and excited to engage with more people or projects? You want to just get to the next thing? As soon as it’s over, are you happily just thinking, just looking around going, what can I do? What can I do? Or, do you feel, like you mentioned, Anna, fulfilled emotionally, yet drained energetically, ready for some alone time? Do you look forward to curling up with a book or a show to just recharge for a while? And then, if that energy lens doesn’t resonate, just think of what you’d freely choose to do after hanging out with a group of friends for a few hours. Would you like to then hang out with another group of friends? Do you want to tackle a big project on your list? Well, then you’re likely higher on the extrovert side of the scale. And if either of those options made you shudder inside, you are probably more of an introvert. Also, as you alluded to earlier, Anna, neither one is better than the other, but it is really helpful to understand that aspect of our personality and that of our friends and family, because if we don’t, it can lead to all sorts of misunderstandings and even taking the other person’s choices personally. ANNA: Right. And that’s the big thing. We’re taking something personally that really has nothing to do with us. And so, along these same lines, but not the same, is how we process information. So, people tend to be internal or external processors. Internal processors take ideas and they think about them for a long time, while they’re weighing options and coming up with a plan and just thinking all about it in their head. And when they tell you something, they tend to be ready to act on the idea. That’s a big difference. An external processor wants to see and hear the ideas in front of them, bouncing off other people. What kind of input are they going to get? “Let’s think about all these different things.” And so, they’ll say things that they have no intention of doing, just to see how it feels. And if we don’t understand this, it really can lead to a lot of confusion. So, my externally processing friend is talking about moving to Europe one day. So, in my mind, I’m planning the going away party. I’m thinking about how sad I’m going to be that they’re gone. And later, I realized that they just wanted to walk through that idea. They were nowhere near making a decision at all. And, Pam, I’m here to say, if I say out loud that I’m moving somewhere, like the truck is lined up and the boxes will be arriving that day. There is no doubt. So, again, you can see how that could lead to conflicts and confusion if we don’t understand how the important people in our lives process information and what they need to process big decisions, be it space, or the listening ear. PAM: Yes, yes, yes. This was such a big revelation for me. I still so clearly many years ago when my partner mentioned mid-week about going somewhere on the weekend. So, me, I went straight into planning mode, right? Boom, boom, boom. Let’s make this happen. And the next day, just asked him a quick question, and his earnest reply was, “What are you talking about?” And I was just flabbergasted. I’m like, “What? You said you wanted to do this!” So, a quick conversation and I realized he had just been tossing that ball up in the air with zero investment in where it landed. Whereas I had already scooped it up and started running towards what I thought was the goal line. Let’s go there this weekend! So, I learned to be less invested in the random balls and instead to just be curious about them, because I knew he was an external processor, to ask questions, to learn more. Are you looking for a change of scenery? What would you like to do there? Just playing with it with him, that helps him process what it might feel like. And, of course, we don’t need to stick anybody in the box again of internal or external processor forever. But it can be really helpful to understand their tendency, so we are more able to them where they are, whether it’s fantasizing and brainstorming, like with your friend, Anna, too, or getting ready to help tape up your boxes. So, understanding that others may well process things differently than I do, I might preface my words so they come across more clearly. So, maybe I say, “I’m dreaming about moving to Europe. What do you think that might be like?” Or, “I’ve been thinking about changing careers for a while now, and I just found this great job I’d like to apply to. Can you help me tweak my resume?” I don’t think it really ever hurts to give people a little bit more context so they can better understand where we’re coming from and what we’re looking for. It helps us connect more quickly. ANNA: Yes. And with all those pieces, they’re just things to consider, patterns to look for, ways to not take things personally, again, because that’s so often where we derail just because someone has a different process or experiences things in a different way. So, letting go of judging also that there maybe is one way or a better way or, “This is the way,” when we can let that go, it just really opens us up to that connection. And so, one of the other things I wanted to touch on are sensitivities. Some people are just wired to experience more. They see more, smell more, take in more. And the situations that feel really easy for one person feel nearly impossible for another. And the confusion comes in when someone takes it personally when someone says something doesn’t work for them. So, I have a hard time in cities. This is a well-known fact for anybody who knows me. The lights, the smells, the sounds, the energy from all the people. So, if someone asks me to go to a city, I would most likely say no pretty quickly. But it’s not a no to spending time with the person, necessarily. And so, I try to be clear, like you were talking about, and transparent, because it helps give them that additional information, which I think is probably always a good idea. Let’s provide some context and information. But it really does help when we take the time to learn about each other’s preferences so that we can honor them and not take them personally. PAM: Absolutely. Recognizing that we’re all different in the way we experience and engage with the world helps us sidestep so much of that judgment and unintentional hurts that happen so often. So, when our introverted partner beelines for the couch to quietly watch some TV after a fun afternoon with extended family, it does not mean that they’re purposefully ignoring us or that they didn’t enjoy the afternoon. It really can just be about their need to recharge. It doesn’t need to be a reflection on us at all. And when we ask our friend about ing us at the big local festival this weekend, “Yay!” and they say they need to think about it, that needn’t be a slight on us, either. Maybe they’re an internal processor and need to think through what a change in plans would mean for them, or maybe they’re an introvert and need to consider how much recovery time they’ll need after and whether they can work that in. And maybe they’re sensitive to the sounds and smells that come with a festival full of food carts and loud music, and need to consider some tools to help them navigate the environment reasonably comfortably for them. And, as you mentioned, Anna, even if they decide not to us, there is a very good chance that, too, is not . We can have a conversation about it with them and next time invite them to get together in a way that works better for them. And the more we know about how we tick, the more easily we can have those kinds of conversations with others. We can share those little pieces of ourselves and open up the space for them to share more with us. And that way, they see that our choices aren’t judgments of them, but are examples of how we care for ourselves. What a difference it makes to our relationships to understand these fundamental differences between people. ANNA: And, I mean, you would think we would know some of this, but really it is a surprise to a lot of people I talk to. It’s this, “Oh yeah, they do that! Now that makes sense.” And so, right, just putting these pieces together and thinking about it for ourselves, even, because that’s the thing, I think sometimes we don’t even have this awareness about ourselves. And so, that’s why I think it’s going to be really interesting this week to think about the important people in our lives, to think about ourselves. What do we know about them? What might we not know? And so, here are our questions to reflect upon for this week. So, first, do you feel you’re more introverted or extroverted? How about the most important people in your life? How do you see them and how do they see themselves? And I want to point this out, because if people meet me in a work environment, they think I’m an extrovert. I took a Myers Briggs test in a corporate America job and they were like, something’s wrong there. I was the farthest on the introvert scale. So, it’s not just how we see someone. Learn about them, because then you know, they may be able to be at this level, but it’s draining them. So, that piece is important. Are you more of an internal or external processor? And what about those around you? And I think it would be curious to look at, have you seen this cause any confusion and peel back some areas where you’ve had some disagreements and think, “Ah, was this at play?” So, I think that could be really interesting. What areas of sensitivities or just preferences do you wish that your partner or your friends understood about you? And then ask them if they have anything they’d like you to know. I think that’s interesting, because I think sometimes we think people just know these things , because we’re spending all this time together, but we don’t. PAM: And then, there’s also that expectation we can have of our partner, too. ANNA: To mind read. PAM: Yeah. It’s like, okay, well they should have figured this out about me. No, let’s be open and share all the little pieces, not have expectations of others to figure it out on their own. That’s a big one, I think. ANNA: Let’s keep sharing, keep that context coming. And lastly, we just wanted to make a quick mention about love languages. So, this idea was put forth by Gary Chapman in his book, that there are five love languages. We each tend to have a primary and a secondary. He lists them as physical touch, words of affirmation, gifts, acts of service, and quality time. What that means is that we receive and feel love best when it’s expressed in our love language. It’s another way that people are different. And the challenge is that we often want to give love in the way that we want to receive it, which of course makes sense. But if the language of our loved one is different than ours, then it will sometimes miss the mark. So, following the link in the show notes, take the love language quiz if you haven’t, and figure out what’s your love language and your partner’s and your children even. And then just look at, “Oh, is that at play with some of these pieces? Are they looking for these words of affirmation that maybe don’t come naturally to me or I don’t think about, or this quality time that in our busy lives we’re not able to prioritize as much and maybe we can prioritize that.” So, it’s just going to be fun digging in to see, just to learn more about each other. And that’s the fun richness of relationships, where we’re learning about ourselves and each other. PAM: Exactly. And I think this one will be really fun for people to play with, too, because one of my love languages is acts of service. So, for me, I love doing little things for people, but are they receiving that as an act of love or just like, “Oh yeah, that thing got done.” It’s not that that anybody’s reacting negatively, but it is it expressing what I’m trying to express through it as well? So, it’s really interesting to then shift it and realize they may have other love languages and to then say, “Oh, well, how could I use their language to express?” And just play with that. You’ll hear me say this many times through the podcast, I’m sure. Let’s play with things and see how they feel, see how they unfold. When we do something, it doesn’t mean we have to do it forever. It doesn’t mean we have to do it the same way forever. It doesn’t mean we ever have to do it again. We learn so much when we just try something out and see what happens. It’s fun. That brings the fun and the playfulness to it. ANNA: I do think relationships are fun and interesting and that playful, open, curious attitude is really what helps that, “Hey, we’re in this together. Let’s figure each other out. Let’s see how we want to move through the world.” So, yeah, I love it! PAM: Yay! Well, thank you so much for listening, everyone, and we will see you next time. Bye. ANNA: Bye.

We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and this time, we’re talking about the stories we tell ourselves. Stories is a topic that comes up a lot in conversations on the Living Joyfully Network. In fact, we had a monthly theme by that name! When we start to get curious about the stories we tell about our own lives, about other people and their intentions, about our children, and on and on, we realize just how powerful it can be to rewrite some of these stories! The stories we choose can empower us and give us confidence or they can pit us against others and make us miserable. We have the power to choose the stories we tell and there are endless possibilities! We really enjoyed diving into this topic and we hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey! THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, coaching, and more! The Living Joyfully Network Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram. Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling. Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling? We invite you to us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about ing our children’s autonomy. Come and be part of the conversation! So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT PAM: I’m Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully, and I am ed by my co-hosts Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. Hello! So, today we are diving into another unschooling stumbling block, and that’s the stories we tell ourselves. And I think this is such an interesting lens to bring to our days.  I know one of my favorite quotes about stories is from Jonathan Gotschall, in his book, The Storytelling Animal: How Stories Make Us Human. He writes: “Story is for a human as water is for a fish – all encoming and not quite palpable.” That resonates so much with me and I found it truly paradigm-shifting to begin recognizing the stories I was telling myself! But before we dive in, I just want to take a moment to invite you to us in the Living Joyfully Network. There is so much value in doing this deep personal work that the unschooling journey asks of us in community because while everybody’s journey absolutely is unique, many of us face similar obstacles and challenges, like recognizing the stories that we tell ourselves, and that is where the power of community shine in helping people feel seen and heard. And in the Network you can learn from the experiences of other unschooling parents, draw inspiration from their aha moments, gain insights from the unique and creative ways that they navigate both their own and their families day-to-day needs. It is just a conversation that comes up quite regularly. To learn more and us, just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on Community in the Top Menu. So, Anna, we have just kind of gotten ourselves swimming in the water of stories. Would you like to get us started?  ANNA: Yes, I am ready. I feel like it’s big, so we’ll see. We’ll see where this ends up. But I do feel like understanding the roles that story plays in our lives can be so helpful.  We are humans. We write stories, so I love the quote, right? It’s everything. We just write stories. And I think it can be a helpful tool. So, this is not about trying to stop writing stories, one, that’s never going to happen. And two, it can be a helpful tool. For me, the story I tell about my life can help me cultivate the energy I want to have. It can help me attract the people that I want to be around. I found for me, if I’m focused on everything’s doom and gloom and all the tough parts, I end up attracting more people that are stuck in those tough places and pointing out more tough problems that I have. But when I focus on the joy that’s there, even in those dark moments, I attract people who can see that too, or hold space for me in a different way. That helps me stay in the energy that works best for me, and I can always switch it up and choose where I want to stay. But there’s something about that little bit of separation and knowing that it’s a choice and that the stories are a choice has just been critical to me and my growth and personal development. And, but then there’s this other aspect of stories that I know we want to touch on, and it’s how we write stories about other people. So the challenge there comes when we don’t check in with the other people and we start to act from our story, the story that we’ve made up. And it can be really surprising and disconcerting to our partner or our friend who’s on the other end of that. So just a quick kind of silly example is, let’s say David’s out of town and he tells me he’s going to text me that night. He’s on an overnight trip. Well, the text never comes. And so I might start writing stories. Well, does he not realize, he said he was going to text me? Does he not care about me? He’s too busy having fun? I’m here holding down the fort and doing all the house stuff. I can start writing this story and then when he comes home. I might be snippy or annoyed, which could come as a complete surprise to him because he had no signal last night and he’s super excited to be home and to see me and to see the kids. And so me operating from that story impacts our night, it impacts us coming back together. And if it’s a pattern of me doing that, it impacts the relationship. And so being aware of when I’m writing a story helps me pause and check in with myself and when possible, the other person involved. But in that situation, I couldn’t check in with him right away, but instead of just writing a story of, he doesn’t care about me, he’s just off doing whatever. I can say, I wonder if he has a signal or it’s weird that he hasn’t texted. I wonder what’s going on with him?  That’s where we talk about being open and curious. I don’t have all the answers. It’s not feeling great that I’m not getting a text, but what’s going on? And when I can come from that place to someone, it’s completely different. And sometimes, I’ll use the tool of, “The story I’m telling myself,” when I’m talking to someone so I can be like, “The story I’m telling myself is, you didn’t care at all that I was home. And you said you were going to text and you didn’t.”  Then he can recognize that’s about me. He can recognize like, oh my gosh, I can understand why you’d feel that way, but it doesn’t put him instantly on the defensive. Like, why didn’t you text? It gets us back into the I messages and that really helps with defensiveness. And you know, I think it just helps us have a conversation that ends up not going sideways. We can just learn more about each other. And that again, is the beauty of being open and curious. I feel like there are so many aspects to stories and I feel like we all have a lot to say. So I’m going to it to you, Erika, and see what’s bubbling up there. ERIKA: Okay, this is one of my absolute favorite topics. I just think the power of our stories is so amazing. And I only realized it was actually so deep and so important once I started exploring the idea in the Network. And so for me, the first step was just learning that I am telling stories. I don’t think I’d really consciously realized that until we talked about stories and it definitely hadn’t sunk in just how powerful they can be. And I think when we’re in our heads and in our own experience and not aware that we are writing stories, the stories just feel like just the truth of what’s going on. I’m just observing and I know what’s happening. That’s what it feels like. And once you start thinking about this, then you’ll notice all the people around you who are believing that their stories are the whole truth as well. You can just see it happen, and it’s one way that people become so disconnected from each other and it’s a big reason for a lot of relationship issues and ruptures. To me, when I’m in that, it feels like, I see what’s happening here. I’m smart. I know exactly why they did what they did, the meaning behind every little thing. But the truth is that I don’t know. All I know really is how it felt to me and that first initial gut response of what this means. But I don’t know about the other person’s internal state or their version of the story unless I’m open and curious to learn more. And I feel like we could do a million examples in this episode, which might be fun, but just a benign example where you won’t really ever know the full truth. I was thinking about just being in traffic. I could drive around Miami feeling attacked and hurt. If I tell the story that every person who’s cutting me off means to do it and they hate me and they’re rude, or I could tell the story that the people are busy and overwhelmed and maybe they’re uncomfortable driving, or they don’t know the area very well. Maybe they’re running late or they really need to go to the bathroom. It’s not about me and I don’t need to tell the story that all these people are purposefully being mean to me. There’s a tiny chance that they are, but even then, there’s something going on for them that I don’t know about that led them to that choice. And so, the story I tell myself as I’m driving helps me either feel peaceful and safe, or it can make me feel scared and upset. The fact that I have the ability to change the story gives me so much power. And obviously we won’t be pulling over and asking all the drivers about their versions of their story, though that would be super interesting. But when we’re talking about situations with people we know and love, then we can be open and curious and ask questions to clarify. We can learn where those stories are way off base. And I love that line that you shared. Just say, “the story I’m telling myself is,” whatever. Because it really helps our partner hear us without getting defensive about it. And it just opens up the conversation so we can see what things we’re missing. And I’m always missing things, because I’m only seeing things through my own lens. And so, we can just use our awareness of the existence of stories as a form of self-care and to make our days feel lighter. Realizing that we’re always telling a story about our own lives and intentionally tweaking it to make it feel better is just a really cool idea. I know I’d love to share more about stories I’ve told myself, but I will pause for the moment, Pam. PAM: I know we all just have so much to say! But yeah, I do want to just bubble that back up, Erika, what you were talking about with the traffic. It’s just a perfect example because you can see how we can tell the story and which one feels better. Which one sets us up for the next moment of our day and the next moment. We’re not telling lies to ourselves. Like you said, we don’t know. We’re not going to try to stop them and say, “Hey, why did you cut me off?” But self-care wise, what feels better? What sets up my day better? Because I’m the one I’m caring for. So, the story that I tell about things really is my choice. And then the other piece that bubbled up for me that I love so much is that, and it goes to our people are different mantra, is really at first, before we recognize that these are all stories. They look like facts, right? This is the fact of the situation because I’m seeing it through my lens. It must look the same to everybody else like that just happened, right? You all feel that same way in reaction to the thing that happened, right? It’s another layer of people are different because, people will see things differently. And of course people are different from different hair color and styles and, and everything. But then personalities. But then to recognize that a situation that’s unfolding before you also incorporates and needs the idea that people are different because people are experiencing that same moment differently. And those are the stories. And when we recognize that, oh, this is how it looks to me, for me, it was adding the, to me until, Anna’s idea of stories came to life because, it’s different how other people see things, each of us are different in how we show up into a moment. So how we experience a moment differently, what it looks to us, how it feels to us, what it means to us is different for each person. And to recognize that those are the stories that we’re all telling ourselves. And then to get to that next step of being, as you said, open and curious about what the story is for other people. That was just a huge paradigm shift for me. As I mentioned, right up top, it was like the world is so much bigger and more interesting, and now I don’t have to control, I don’t have to think other people are wrong, I don’t have to go in and fix things. I can learn instead of fix, right? There is no one right way. I don’t need to have an agenda. Like all those pieces that we talk about really fundamentally boil down to the stories that we tell ourselves, right? ANNA: And we don’t have to defend or explain either, right? I think it really leaves us open, it’s a much more reciprocal kind of relationship because we’re learning about each other. So it’s like, “Hey, this is the story I’m telling myself. This is how that was landing for me.” That gives you information about my sensitivities or how things land for me, or what feels easy and hard for me. And then as I understand your story, I’m learning about you. And especially if you’re somebody that I care about and love, then that helps us relate. That helps us be aware of how things are landing and what’s happening and we can ask better questions and we can show up in the conversations differently. But I do love the traffic example because it doesn’t even have to be something that we check. It’s still something we control. And I’ve said this before, but I always would tell my oldest, if you’re going to make up a story, make up a good one, because she would make up these stories that just were doom and gloom about everything. And I’m like, you don’t have any idea if any of these things you’re saying are true are going to happen. And so how interesting to spend that energy creating something that’s going to make you feel a certain way, like you were saying Erika, maybe scared in traffic or feeling frustrated then going to the next moment angry and frustrated because you’ve had this traffic experience when you could change that story. And sometimes in traffic I’ll do an over the top story. They have a baby. Their baby’s on the way. They’re trying to rush to the hospital, you know, just to kind of make myself laugh and get out of my head about it and just slow down because really what difference does it make if I’m a little bit later or one more car behind the other car? But sometimes it takes me being silly and making up a story that kind of over the top to do that. But like you said, Erika, I loved that piece that before we’re even aware that stories exist and how integral they are to our day, it really does just feel like the facts, well, the facts are this, you said this, you did this, but we never know what someone else’s motivations are, what drove them, whether it’s from childhood trauma or from the context of something, of a conversation, they just walked out of another room and came into this room with that still weighing on them. There’s so many things that go into, people are different and it’s just so important for me to leave space for that and just have it be this opportunity to learn about the people I care about. And story is such an important part of that. ERIKA: And doesn’t it feel so closely tied to just the differences in our personalities, the type of stories that we’re going to tend to want to write? I think initially it doesn’t even really feel like we do have that choice. And it’s something that takes a little bit of thought and diving in and playing around with. I when I first ed the Network, one of the biggest a-ha moments right away was just the idea that people could have a different response to the same issue and have a different feeling.  The way I grew up, I have that vision of how my mom thought about things. Then I have my vision of my just natural emotional responses to things. And so the idea that maybe a child could say something that seems really scary or disturbing and that it would be okay for someone to not freak out. I was just amazing, it’s okay to not freak out. I’ve never even heard of such a thing. And so just that idea of people are different. That kind of started to open me up to. It’s not like a foregone conclusion that I have to respond in this one way to something that happens. And, then I was also thinking about how, when you hear parents of young kids saying things like, they are doing this to annoy me. They’re doing this because of something, and so we put intentions onto everyone, including little babies. We put these intentions on them like they’re doing it for this reason. And so when those kinds of thoughts pop up, that could be a little flag of, okay, I actually am not inside of their brain. And so I don’t know what the intention is. And that reminds me of those underlying needs, like getting more to underlying needs or learning more about the context of the situation for someone else. Assuming everyone is doing the best that they can in the moment with what they know and with whatever context they’re dealing with. All of those helpful thoughts. I feel like it’s like a calming thought to think everyone’s doing the best that they can in the moment, and that helps me get away from the story of everyone is doing everything to annoy me specifically, or to just make my life difficult, which, you know, in some moments it can feel like that. PAM: I think that is such a huge one, Erika. I love that because it’s so true. It depends on our capacity, et cetera. You know, people are doing things that are frustrating around us and we are thinking, they know I don’t like that they’re doing that to piss me off. And it really feels like that’s the full story. That’s it, the facts. Everybody around me is doing things that they know is just going to get me more and more frustrated. Like, why are the kids fighting again? And so to be able to shift the story to look for the underlying needs, to see that we are being triggered but it’s not .  If we can get to the story about, oh, you know, what’s happening for them because they’re the ones doing it and chances are they’re not doing it to piss us off, right? Stuff’s going on in their lives. There’s a whole different story going on for them. When we can start to recognize that, I think that really helps in our relationships. And I wanted to mention one other layer underneath. I needed to learn about stories for other people, and understand their perspectives to then get to the layer of my self-talk and how I spoke to myself, the stories I told about myself, because those were very automatic. If something went wrong, ah, I did that wrong again. Or, I’m a bad person. All those stories that we tell ourselves. To recognize that, this grace I’m giving to other people in recognizing that their story is different from mine and not assuming all sorts of things around it, I could also start to try and give myself that grace and tell the stories differently.  When I think about it a lot of people, when we start talking about stories, they kind of come to it with the impression at first that you’re just making things up. You’re just kind of lying to yourself so that it feels better, so that things look better, et cetera, et cetera. When you recognize that that’s not what’s happening, that there is more than one way to see a situation, right? When you’re stuck thinking there’s one right way, you’re just putting your head in the sand or you think that when we write a different story that we are.  But when you recognize that there really are different ways, then you can bring that grace to yourself and how you choose to speak to yourself through situations, through anything that’s going on. For me, that was and continues to be, not just a challenge, but so helpful in moving through things because it actually resonates more deeply than just trying to guilt myself into something or trying to beat myself up. Gotta do that better next time, or whatever the story is, but recognizing what’s actually going on. I learn more about myself and so I have more context. As I think you mentioned, I like slowing down to actually recognize what’s going on. I can give myself that grace instead of just beating myself up quickly because that is just the normal reaction that I’m used to. Giving that space to recognize the context of things helps me have better, more accurate language and stories as to what’s going on, rather than just leaping to the typical story that I’ve always told myself. ANNA: That makes sense. I love that connection with self-talk. I had written myself a note from what Erika was saying, but it actually fits with that too, which is basically our stories tell us a lot about ourselves. It is kind of a litmus test of, okay, wow, I’m really writing stories that are very harsh towards myself or harsh towards someone else, or whatever it is. That tells me a lot about where I am, where my mindset is, what’s happening for me. I think it can be a really good clue that I’m needing some self-care. I need to slow down. I need some help. I need some because this is happening. So I think it is really interesting to look at our stories as giving us information about where we are, mentally. How we’re feeling, what’s happening for us. Because I think we all have generous hearts and we want to do that, but there are times where it feels really heavy and overwhelming, and we can start to write stories that just keep us in that space. And so when we can step back and have that pause of like, wow, I’m being really harsh towards myself, or I’m not giving myself space, or I’m being really harsh towards this person in my life that I care about. Where’s that coming from? I think just that little bit of separation to recognize they are stories, it just starts this whole process of self-awareness and how we’re showing up in the world and all of those different pieces. And just again, to repeat the piece of, everybody sees things so differently and there isn’t a right or wrong, but it is really freeing. Because Erika, we talked about this when we were having some of those epiphanies, it’s pretty amazing to think, okay, so then you get to decide does this way of thinking feel good to me? Does it work for me?  Because here are three other people that are doing it completely differently. And so how do I feel about that? Instead of thinking that there’s one way. One that came up early in the network was “worry equals love”. And it was really freeing for a lot of people to think it doesn’t have to be worry to be love. You don’t have to be worried about everything to show that you’re loving your children or other people. And again, people have to find their place on that spectrum, but there are people all over that spectrum, you know? And so I think it’s so powerful. And so I just love that idea of using our stories as just a, hey, checking in with myself, what are the stories I’m telling myself about my life right now? Because I have also found when I can switch it, that’s when I get out of the stuck place. That’s when things change. That’s when a new door opens up, that’s when something else happens. I. It’s a powerful, powerful tool. ERIKA: One other thought popped into my head. I know this is stories we tell ourselves, but also stories we tell about ourselves to people. That’s a big part of this as well, because, you kind of mentioned it at the beginning, Anna, but just like what you present about your life is you’re going to receive different responses based on different things, and this is something that I’m still working on for myself because I realized that I tended and still tend to want to tell the hard negative story about what I’m going through in my days. I think because of a desire for connection, wanting someone to care in response to that, but it is me ramping up the side of the story of things that are very challenging and downplaying the good things. And that is one attempt at getting connection, but it’s not the only way to do it. And so it’s something to play around with. Like when Josh comes home from work, I’m telling the story of a great day. How does that type of connecting conversation feel in comparison to the, I need to make sure to tell him all the hard things that happened. How does that feel? And it’s interesting because it’s all there. Like on any given day, both parts are there. I can choose to tell which version of the story I want to in that moment. And it’s just kind of getting curious about how it plays out differently with the different versions is interesting. PAM: I’m glad you mentioned the word play there because, that’s exactly what bubbled up for me when you were talking because that’s so true. And the different context too. I know when we would be visiting extended family, et cetera, you know, and they’re asking, how’s it going? The story that I chose to share in various contexts made a difference. Because even there, extended family loves you but have their opinions. We did an episode recently about, it’s not the unschooling, but for them they would see the big changes, the unschooling. So if I said I was having a hard time with this kid, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The “answer” for them would be to send them to school. They would really be trying to help. It’s so fun to just play around with. I learned to change my story, and it’s not even that one’s right or wrong, it’s just selecting the part of the story of what I want to emphasize about our days, right? And picking out the pieces that these are the things that I want to share with this person or the, these people, et cetera. And, just be more purposeful and intentional about it. And I say play because play with different aspects that you share and see how it feels. See what kind of reactions you get. That is another way to learn about the impact of the stories that we tell. So again, it’s not ignoring things, but it’s how we tell ourselves the story, how we tell others the stories of our days. I think it just helps us to observe more, to see more of the things that are happening and not to give more weight to any one aspect, to any one particular part than all the rest. So, now you’ve got a much larger smorgasbord of stories to choose from, and you can go from one to the next, to the next, to the next, but play around with them and just get a sense for which feels good and which makes that connection that you’re looking for with the person that you’re talking to.  ANNA: That’s what I was going to say. I love that point, Erika, to look at the underlying needs, so stories are a tool, right? A tool to move through the world to get what we need to figure out these pieces. But if we can understand what is our need that we’re trying to meet, then we can play around with the story that gets us there. Because depending on the person that you’re talking to, with that end of day story. They might be a nurturer, so they hear that kind of sad story about the day and swoop you up in a big hug and snuggle you. But if they’re not that nurturing personality, that actually can be really off-putting, like, okay, I don’t know what to do. You’re upset, I don’t know what to do. That’s too hard. And so if connection is the goal now, if to be heard about your tough times is a goal. Okay, then we can figure that out. But if it’s connection, then you know what? It might be sharing the amazing things that the kids did today. And then that brings that person closer because they feel excited to learn about that. So playing around with what need am I trying to meet? And then what story serves me and the situation? What do I want to present to help get that need met? What gets me there? And same with the in-laws. What am I trying to do here? If I’m looking for for unschooling or parenting or different things. Is this the environment where I want to tell the story about what’s happening in our life? Or do I want to do it in a place where people understand where I’m coming from or have information that might be interesting to my journey. I think all of that’s really important, but I think the slowing down gets us there. What’s the need? What’s happening? What’s my point? And then playing around what, how, what can we do? ERIKA: And just wrapping your head around the idea of, it’s not lying about your life. It’s all there. It’s all there, all of these versions of the story are true. You’re not kidding yourself to tell a positive version of something. It is just super interesting and, and a lot to play around with. PAM: So much to play around with. Well, thank you so much for ing us, everybody listening, Anna and Erika, it’s always such a pleasure and we all hope that you enjoyed our conversation around the idea of stories. Now maybe you’re seeing some of the water that you’re swimming in. I think that’ll be really fun to play around with and consider ing us in the Living Joyfully Network where we dive into these kinds of topics regularly and with other kind and thoughtful unschooling parents. We have amazing families in the network and we are excited to welcome you to learn more and us. Just follow the link in the show notes or go to LivingJoyfullyShop.com and click on community in the menu. We wish everyone a very lovely day. Thanks. Bye bye. Take care.

In this week’s flashback episode, we’re sharing an interview that Pam had in 2018 with Nick Hess. At the time of the interview, Nick, also known online as The Unschool Dad, and his wife were unschooling their five children. They chatted about about his family’s move to unschooling, what it was about unschooling that resonated with him, what he found challenging, and surprising, about unschooling as it has unfolded in their lives, and lots more! For thousands of years, humans learned naturally. When you let it happen and you get there, and you do not force it, you are just there helping them. And I think that is the important part, is that you have to be there. I mean, me and my wife are constantly with our children. You have to be there to help them, and guide them, answer their questions, or help them spell something. And when you are there, and you are just part of your children’s lives, you just see it all. You come together and it is truly a magical lifestyle that we live, it is just amazing. ~ Nick Hess QUESTIONS FOR NICK Can you share with us a bit about you and your family? I love hearing about what unschooling kids are up to. Can you share what your children are interested in right now? What did your family’s move to unschooling look like? What were the pieces that resonated with you and helped you feel more confident in choosing unschooling? What has been the most challenging aspect of moving to unschooling for you? What has surprised you most so far about how unschooling has unfolded in your lives? You post regularly on Facebook and Instagram as The Unschool Dad, sharing inspirational quotes as well as pics of your unschooling lives. I enjoy following you guys and I’d love to know what inspired you to start this project. As an unschooling dad, what piece of advice would you like to share with dads who are considering or just starting out on this journey? THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE Rosie Hess illustrated the book, Bubbles and Puddles: Our Unschooling Adventure, by Kristie Howe The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more! We invite you to us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation! Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling? Listen to our conversation on YouTube. Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram. Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling. TRANSCRIPT PAM: Hi everyone, I’m Pam Laricchia from livingjoyfully.ca and today I am here with Nick Hess. Hi Nick! NICK: Hi, how are you? PAM: I’m good, thank you. If people don’t know, Nick is an unschooling dad with five children, and I said that because you may know him online as The Unschool Dad. He has an active Facebook page and he is on Instagram as well and it is always fun to catch all of the interesting pictures and quotes and stuff that he shares. I am excited to learn more about his family’s unschooling experience, so to get us started, Nick … Can you share with us a bit about you and your family? NICK: Sure, I have been married to my wife for almost twenty years. We have five kids as you said, and my oldest is seventeen, Rosie, Isabella is thirteen, Nick Jr. who is eleven, Evangeline is nine, and Joshua, who is six. PAM: Wow… NICK: We have a lot of kids… PAM: I would imagine that turns into a lot of fun, right? NICK: Yes, it does. PAM: Speaking of which, I do love hearing what unschooling kids are up to; it is always fun to see the kind of things that they are exploring. I was hoping you might share what your kids are interested in right now. NICK: Sure, it is mainly a lot of art in our house. I will start with my oldest daughter, Rosie, who is an active artist. A couple of years ago she was an illustrator for a children’s unschooling book, it is called, Bubbles and Puddles: Our Unschooling Adventure, by Kristie Howe. She drew all of the illustrations for the book and she just loves to draw. She was the first one who started drawing and it really led to the other ones sparking their interest in drawing. My second daughter is a self-taught whale artist. Isabella draws orcas and all kinds of marine mammal life. It is just amazing; some of her pictures look like photos. PAM: They do, yeah. NICK: It is pretty amazing. We just got back from California, actually. We took her to see some live dolphins off the coast. Hopefully she will get some inspiration from that. Then my third son, Nick Jr., he is a chef; he loves to cook. I share his pictures as well, this kid could out-cook all of the adults I know. He makes everything from scratch and he is very ionate about it, that is one thing that he just loves to do. Most kids want toys and things like that, and he wants kitchen utensils. Evangeline is another little artist. What is cool is that she started younger than my first two and she has her older sisters to help her out, so I am really excited to see what her drawings are going to look like as she progresses. She likes to draw a lot of original characters and things like that. My fifth, Joshua, is a video game addict; he loves the challenge of video games, he is very competitive, whoever plays with him knows that he is going to be very competitive; he loves to win. He loves Epic Mickey 2 right now, he can play that game over and over again. PAM: That is awesome. I trying the first Epic Mickey, that was really hard for me. NICK: He will watch YouTube tutorials, and he works through that, before even six years old. PAM: That is awesome. I love hearing what they are interested in because they just throw themselves into it! It’s not like “That’s my kids interest.” No, they are just human beings throwing themselves into whatever it is. It is just so fun to watch them, isn’t? NICK: It is just their ion and it is just like, you see it—the freedom they have. They could be in school all day but why when they could be really learning their ion with things that really excite their soul and the freedom of being a human being just to do what you want, uninhibited. It is amazing, it is truly magical to watch and I am truly honoured as a father that I am able to see it in my children. PAM: I love that phrase you used, “excite their soul,” because that is what it looks like, isn’t’ it? I am speechless… NICK: It is truly magical, sometimes it’s just, “Wow.” PAM: I know, that is awesome. I was hoping you could share with us what your family’s move to unschooling looked like. NICK: Well actually, it is a pretty interesting journey. I actually started when I was very young, I was in public school, and I was born and raised in Las Angeles, so I was in the California education system. I really disliked school. I was never bullied or anything, I had friends, I grew up with all the kids on my block. I had great friends, there was no problem with that, it just was boring to me, it was just a complete, utter bore. I knew there was always something better for me. Then, when I was in the fourth grade, my dad wanted to go back east—he was originally from West Virginia and he wanted to go see his family, so he went and asked the school, “Hey, I am taking my son back east for a couple of months, is there any way you guys can put the work together so he can do it?” and they were like, “No, you just have to take him out and go him wherever you are going.” So, they took me out, but they did not me in the new school, so I truly experienced what it was like to be living life without school, and it was amazing. So, from being very small in the fourth grade to realize what school was…we came back and they put me in, they put me right where I had left off, they did not tell me anything, they just put me back in the class like nothing ever happened. That really impacted me young; what the true meaning of school was and from then on it just really resonated with me what the school system was about. PAM: So, have any of your children been to school at all? NICK: They have not. When we first started, we knew we were going to homeschool from the beginning, but we put the oldest in a homeschool program—a charter school that gave us a curriculum. The whole thing with that was that she was in kindergarten and the California state testing came along and she was fearful of the test and we told her, “We do not care what you score, you could write anything,” but the fear that kept coming across really made us think and realize what it was about. During a homeschool group, someone introduced my wife to Thomas Jefferson Education, a book, and from that, she read a John Holt book, and just realized there was so much more out there than the schooling system. PAM: That is really cool. What were the pieces that resonated with you as she was reading John Holt and bringing those ideas into your lives? What were the pieces that helped you feel really confident about moving to unschooling? NICK: Like I said, a lot with my own personal experience, and especially in high school. My parents were very ive of me and in high school I still had the same feelings of not wanting to be there, so I started ditching. I lived in LA, I had a bus that would take me anywhere in LA County, so I would take off. My parents didn’t know at first and I would go to the Tonight Show. There was only one time I got stuck in downtown LA at 11:00 at night and I had to call my parents and tell them because they thought I was at a friends’ house. I am very grateful to my parents; they did not get mad, I had to wait for my dad to get off work and come and get me, but my parents always respected that. They always saw and knew that I was different, that it was a different journey for me, so I was really thankful that my parents were really respectful of me for that. They let me drop out of my senior year. At the time I had no idea, but my dad got a job transfer to Honolulu. I was going to go for high school but I did not really want to, I would rather explore Hawaii, and so it was really cool that they did not force me to go. I would surf and they let me get a job, so I got a job in my senior year of high school and I started exploring Hawaii and their culture, and it was really true life experience. So, when it came to learning about John Holt and I mean, that man is amazing, just everything about what he writes really resonated with everything that we wanted for our children. PAM: It is almost like a light bulb isn’t it? You knew it internally, but it did not really come out until you read that, and it is like “Well yeah, of course, that makes so much sense.” NICK: Yeah. At first I thought, this kid would be in school and here I am, a high school drop out, and that there is a piece of a light bulb, there is so much once you realize and you see what life is about, a light bulb goes off and then you can’t look back. I do not question unschooling. I can’t think of any other way as our family grows and everything about it encomes our daily lives—it is just amazing. PAM: And does that help you look back more positively too, on that high school time and your parents being ok with you exploring Hawaii, for example, instead of finishing high school and you getting a job and that kind of stuff? Do you look more positively on that now? NICK: Definitely. There is the whole self-education movement and it has never stopped me from being who I wanted to be, and it is like many people say that you need to have a diploma, you need to have a degree, you need to have so many things in life to be successful, but to be honest, it has never stopped one thing I wanted in life. That degree or a job I needed, or my business; it has never been in the way. Actually being able to teach myself along the way has helped me more than I think school ever did for me. PAM: That makes a lot of sense. So then, what for you was the most challenging aspect of moving to unschooling? NICK: You know, I think it would have to be family, because me and my wife, we are pretty much always on the same page with a lot of things in life, but our family has been pretty unive, like, “you guys are crazy.” I think that was a challenge because you are just constantly having a Facebook post trigger somebody, and it is like, your cousin’s daughter is a teacher and she wants to fight with you. So, I think that was the biggest part, and as the years go by when people try to ask me or pick their unschooling fights, I am over it. If people get it, they get it, if they don’t, they don’t. I mean, I can talk to them. So many people are just like, “How dare you? Kids need school,” and it is just like, I am at this point where I see it in my own life, I see it in my children’s lives, I see the incredible things my children do, it is just the family…it is hard because sometimes people are close to the family and it is just like when you finally get over caring what they think anymore and it is just like, “Hey we know what we are doing, at the end, you will see our kids flourish and everything,” and I think that is the whole point. I think the family was probably the hardest, the most challenging aspect of it overall, all those years ago when we started. PAM: Did you find yourself, when you were first starting, kind of pulling away for awhile because you found that it was conflicting? I know for us, for awhile that first year we did less family occasions because they were so confrontational because it was new to them. They felt they could change our mind and I was still learning and getting comfortable, because I didn’t have experience yet. I hadn’t spent a year or two seeing my kids unschooling and knowing in my bones that this was awesome. We were just trying it out, so that was one of the things that helped us, did you find that as well? NICK: I think one of the biggest things that was really helpful is that we moved from California and all of both sides of our families are in California. So basically, we only see them a couple of times a year so that daily thing, besides the Facebook posts, was really moving away to really be us, and really be who we are. My parents have always been ive of it and they moved to Arizona with us, and the whole of that with us, my wife and us as a team, as a family, I think helped and that whole move really helped a lot where it was not this bombardment of it every day. PAM: What was behind the move, was that something that just happened coincidentally? NICK: Yes, it was. PAM: It was a coincidence? NICK: It was a coincidence. In our business we sell at fairs and festivals, and we were doing a couple of events in Arizona and just the cost of living in Arizona was much cheaper than California at the time. It was about 10 years ago, before the whole collapse of the economy and housing and everything here was just so much cheaper. It just so happened that at that ten-year mark, when the whole school thing was happening with my daughter, we were leaving and we moved here and that is when we really started our journey without school. PAM: That is really interesting; that is cool how it worked out. What has surprised you most so far about how unschooling has unfolded in your lives? NICK: The most surprising thing would be how children teach us. At first, I did not realize, when you are open and you have an open relationship with your children and you have a good relationship with your children, and you are your children’s friends—I mean, our children are our best friends—they truly teach you about everything. There are some things that my son will come up to me and talk to me about something in World War II and he is only 11 and it’s like, “Oh wow, thank you for that information.” The knowledge they have, overall it is just amazing; just the facts and the things that they know. Truly I don’t believe that if my children were in school … the art, the creativity they have, I think it would be stifled. Because they would have to come home and do homework and then we would have to constantly be on them. The whole thing just allows them to be creative and let everything flow; just natural living. PAM: I love that idea of flow, that is something that I was totally surprised by. Because before that, so much of our day is scheduled and organized and you think that being hands off and not having that schedule, you just kind of assume you will just sit around and do nothing unless we plan it, but that is so wrong. NICK: Yes, definitely. PAM: And you are right about how much they teach us, because once you are on equal footing as people, as human beings, and everybody is just sharing what they find interesting with each other, it is amazing all of the bits and pieces that they pick up and it is so lovely when you can say, “Thank you, I didn’t know that.” And that happens so often, doesn’t it? NICK: Every day. Every day is something new, every day is truly about freedom to allow them to access things. To really access technology, to access the information on the internet. My younger kids; the little ones do not know how to read but they can talk to google and ask the little tablet anything they want in the world and that information is at your finger tips. That is the amazing part, when they are curious about something like the election, we don’t really talk about politics, but they will come up to us and talk about politics or just a million things that you would not even think little kids would talk about, but that freedom and that flow is just so magical. Kids are interested in things, they are interested in the world, they are interested about a lot of things, and when you give them that freedom to explore the world, what it truly is, they explore and they learn and it is truly magical. PAM: I love that word, magical, because it does seem like that, doesn’t it? I mentioned earlier that you post regularly on Facebook and Instagram as ‘The Unschool Dad’ and you share a lot of great inspirational quotes as well as pictures from your unschooling lives. I really enjoy following you guys so I would love to know, what inspired you to start that project? NICK: Actually, that was kind of a mistake. I just created the one day, ‘The Unschool Dad,’ to share memes I liked, or quotes I liked off the internet, so I would not hurt people; I was tired of arguing with people, like I said. One day, I had my mother’s cousin’s daughter, who was training to be a teacher, and they were just totally offended and it got into this big heated argument, so I was like, ‘You know what, I am just tired of this; these people just do not get it. I’m going to make a page, and I am just going to share memes that I see on the internet that I like so I can go back and look.’ Somehow one meme got shared and went viral and, all of a sudden, I had 1,000 followers and then 2,000 followers and now I have almost 47,000 followers and it is just word of mouth, I have never put anything into it. I would like to blog, but I do not really have the time. Probably eventually I will start blogging, to share our experiences as a family, but it is just really cool how it has grown. Sometimes it is hard work to really keep up with it, but the messages I get, “Oh, thank you for showing us that this could be done,” that inspires me to do more to show people there is really another way, to give your children freedom, and I get more positive reactions. Like I said, I get pissed off at the teachers every once in awhile, but it is more positive than anything, just really helping families see another way to live their lives. PAM: I love that it started because you were posting things on your personal page, right and that was sparking discussion so then when you made an unschooling focused one, you are more attracting people that are interested in that. That is brilliant. NICK: With Instagram, it is more focused because it is people that want to see you. On Facebook sometimes the algorithms of Facebook share it to somebody that does not want to see it and somebody likes it and they will show it to somebody, a specific family member who goes, “Oh how dare you! What are you thinking? That’s child abuse.” PAM: Less often? NICK: So once again, I like Instagram. It is more directed at people that want to follow you; it doesn’t show up in somebody else’s newsfeed, so that helps a lot. PAM: Very cool, and I loved your point about how sometimes that can be the first light bulb moment for someone, because those memes are like little seeds, aren’t they? They may just and and then they start to connect in the background for people and then they get more curious. I think it is lovely. NICK: Yeah, definitely. Even some people have been like, “Oh wow, I never thought of that.” When you incorporate this unschooling and attachment parenting and peaceful parenting and overall just truly respecting children. When they see a child for who they are, a human being, and that is what it really comes down to. We treat children like they are some kind of oddity, “Oh, you need to do this; for these 12 years you need to go to school and learn all of these things,” but truly, just for the human rights of a child, to see who they are, to really let them blossom, is magical. PAM: That is so true. I mean, because we start with unschooling, but quickly we get to the foundation, like what simmers underneath that. Unschooling is built on these relationships with our children, and that is human—even if school has to be in the picture, you can still have respectful, trusting, loving human being based relationship with your child, right? NICK: Yes, definitely. At the beginning of this school year, my children were interested in this online school, my eleven-year-old and nine-year-old. So, they asked us, and we respected their decision and we enrolled them. One of them did not start it; my daughter did not start it, she said forget it, and my son did it for a week but could not stand it. I respected their decision to try it, and they tried it and now he knows that he didn’t like it, but he had the chance to do it and it was just so time consuming. There was a homeschool part with a curriculum where he had to sit there at least for 5 hours in front of the computer and did all their common core math and he realized what it was about and after a week he asked not to do it. It was truly amazing to let him make that decision about his schooling, not like “You have to do this.” At 10-11 years old that he knows he has the freedom to choose what he wants in life. My happiness comes from his happiness; what he wants to do. Really the pleasure of life is to see them happy. PAM: Yeah, for me that where my Living Joyfully website came from. Because you realize that when you are pursuing those things that get us excited, that bring us joy, that make us happy, where even the negative things that happen and everything—that is all life. Those are experiences that mean something to us because we are pursuing them from our own volition, because we are interested. When we are pursuing the things that are fascinating to us, that is when we just learn so much no matter what happens in the end, right? NICK: Yes, definitely. Like, for example, with reading. I think this is probably a lot of people—it is good that we do not live around family because I never forced my children to read and the desire came from playing video games to chat, it is truly magical. I think that the whole magical thing about unschooling is watching your child learn how to read naturally. And from being inspired from something they love, with my older two it was a big thing a couple of years ago. They had subscriptions but you had to chat with other people in the group and so they asked, “Hey, we want to read.” It is just truly magical; seeing their desire to learn. Most people are like, “Your kid is 10 and doesn’t know how to read yet,” but it seems like that is the age when my children really had the desire. We never had to force them, we just let it flow, and to see that flow of reading and see it naturally and from a ion, from their desires to learn how to read. My daughter seems like she can write better than I can, and she never had any kind of formal curriculum on any of this, but I see them write and I see them talk. Especially my oldest—communicating with other people and I’m just like, “Wow, can you teach me?” PAM: (Laughter) I know. They are so focused within the curriculum in schools to teach the skill because, ‘this is a skill that you will need,’ but when you have the patience to follow that flow, the need for those skills comes up in life, naturally, doesn’t it? And to see them hit that … for them, picking up that skill is not about the skill, it is about satisfying the need, and they will pick up that skill along the way. NICK: Yes, when you let it flow naturally, and just all of the things like math and all of the little things—I understand there are some children that pick up reading early, there are some children that want to read earlier—but when you see it and you let it flow through everything in life. For thousands of years, humans learned naturally. When you let it happen and you get there, and you do not force it, you are just there helping them. And I think that is the important part, is that you have to be there. I mean, me and my wife are constantly with our children. You have to be there to help them, and guide them, answer their questions, or help them spell something. And when you are there, and you are just part of your children’s lives, you just see it all. You come together and it is truly a magical lifestyle that we live, it is just amazing. PAM: And that is such a good point too, because, like you say, when you are with them, if they are not at a place where reading is going to come together for them, we are there to help them, to read for them, so that you do not hold a skill hostage on them, you know what I mean? “If you want that, you have got to figure out how to read.” NICK: Actually, we had a problem like that; that is a perfect example. We had a family member that came over and he has a college degree and he is into engineering and he got my son all of these different little engineering things and he told him (this was a couple of years ago), he said “I am not going to teach you because you can’t read.” We were flabbergasted. It was like, you missed a moment with this child that you could share all of your knowledge with, but you told him that because he cannot read you are not going to help him. And it was just amazing that people think this way. He could have probably learned way more by you sitting there explaining to him the things, because then you are applying it to something that he is excited about in his life, but instead choosing not to connect with him. It was just crazy to us to think that somebody would say that. PAM: Yeah, I know, it just makes no sense. Just because it is not something that comes up in our lives. Like you said, it was somebody from the outside coming in and sometimes it surprises you because it has been so long since you have seen that kind of approach or attitude towards kids, right? NICK: Yeah, that is what has helped in moving away. I mean, 98% of my friends on Facebook are unschoolers, so over the years I have been surrounded and our friends are unschoolers, so when somebody outside approaches, it is just like, “Oh, we have been doing this for a long time, I think we know it works.” PAM: And our last question, Nick. As an unschooling dad, what piece of advice would you like to share with dads who are considering or just started out on this journey? NICK: I think the biggest thing and one of my favourite quotes by John Holt is to really trust children. “To trust children we must first learn to trust ourselves,” and, I think, just be open-minded, you know what I mean? And I know I see this question a lot in groups. I do not really participate in groups, but I see them, or some friend will send me a message, asking like “How do I convince my husband to unschool?” or “My mother in law does not get it.” And I think that the biggest part for dads is to really trust your children and just be open-minded; but a er, be a listener. I know sometimes dads go away for work and they are working a lot, so it is a lot of times the responsibility of the mom with the kids. Really listen to your spouse, your significant other on what is really going on. Be ive. I mean, children are learning, when you give them that environment of freedom. So many times our society says, “Not this, not this.” We constantly want to restrict, restrict, but children are very good at self-regulating when you give them the freedom to be on the internet and explore what they want. Let them explore; our future is technology. Give them the freedom to be who they are, and I know many people, like my example, my ions, when you learn about your ions, you are learning about something new, you learn just like your children will learn. Just overall really trust, respect the child. Just respect and be ive and unless there is some kind of developmental thing where your child is not learning, they will learn, they will get it as long as you are there, as long as one parent is there guiding them and directing them, they are learning and you are giving them that freedom to pursue what they want. They are going to learn. PAM: I love that; I think that open-mindedness is so important because it is such a big leap. It is so unconventional at first, isn’t it? But if you can have that open-mindedness and just hold that trust for awhile and let things flow, you will see for yourself; all of these things will happen, won’t they? NICK: Yes, definitely. Like I said, it is hard for some people to realize, like with that whole school thing, and then coming to something where you let children be free, it is a really hard decision, but it is really well worth it. It is really worth it just to see them and just to blossom into these amazing human beings, these amazing people. And another thing I think that dads do, they think they need to be this father figure and set these rules in their house. But free your children from arbitrary rules, and just be your children’s friend. I have amazing relationships with my children. Our teenagers are amazing human beings. You see people complain about their teenagers and it is just like, I cannot complain. We are really friends. They are amazing. When you give them freedom and you respect them, you have to be their friend and they will come to you. When my daughter has a problem, she comes to my wife or I, when she is sad. With any outside influence where they are bothered, they come to you, and that is the effect of unschooling I want, is that they come to us instead of finding some other kind of thing to fulfill their need. When they can know that they can come talk to us we can help them solve the problem or figure something out, and I think that is what the true experience is about. PAM: Yeah. They know that we have their backs, right? That they are not going to be judged, they are not going to be … punished. I could not think of the word! It has been a long time! But yeah, when you are on the same team, that does not mean that things are perfect or anything like that because stuff happens in life, things go wrong, but when they know you have their back, like you said, they are going to come to you. They know you have the experience, they know you love them, and they have this comfortable relationship with you to sort through things and to try to figure out a path forward, right? NICK: I think that is the biggest thing that made my public schooling tolerable was that I knew my parents had my back, like from being very little, I was the youngest; my brothers and sisters were older and had already moved out, and my mom always had my back. From when I was little, I being three or four, and we were somewhere and I was just looking at candy, and the lady said, “Don’t touch that,” and my mom immediately told that lady “Hey, don’t talk to my son like that.” So, from being very little, I knew my mom would stand up for me. Throughout my school when I knew something was wrong, no matter if I was right or the school was right or if I was wrong, I could go home to my mom and my mom would be right down at the school telling them where to put it. That is very important, especially because I grew up in the inner city of LA; there were a lot of gangs and things like that and I could have been influenced any way, but I knew my parents were very ive of me. That is true that that is the most important key in all of it, just being there for them, and helping them through life so they know they can come to you and not go somewhere else. PAM: That is such a great point, Nick, and I think you are right; it boils down to that relationship in the end, doesn’t it? And that relationship lasts a lifetime, not just for the compulsory school years. You are building a life with them. NICK: Yeah, it is a lifestyle. It is our whole life and a lot of people think this unschooling is an education method for your children, but it is not, it is life. Like my wife and I, when we first started going this way, it helped us question things in life. It made us better critical thinkers of so many other things in life, and we are learning and it is just amazing overall, the knowledge, and the things you start questioning over and over, and it is just like, it is a lifestyle. Everything encomes your life; learning and growing, and questioning. It is just awesome. PAM: That’s right. It is awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today, Nick. I had so much fun, thank you! NICK: Thank you for having me. And for having me share. PAM: Yeah, I loved hearing a bit more about your story, that is great. And before we go, where is the best place for people to connect with you online if they would like to follow along as well? NICK: On Facebook, The Unschool Dad, or Instagram, at The Unschool Dad. PAM: Perfect, and I will share links to that in the show notes. Thank you so much, Nick, have a great day! NICK: Bye.

For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Connection. How connected we’re feeling to the people in our lives is a helpful barometer of our relationships. Feeling disconnected can be a sign that it’s time to more intentionally cultivate connecting moments. Anna shares one of the questions that guides her decision-making: ‘Is what I’m about to do going to enhance or harm my connection with this person?’ We also explore the idea of bids for connection, which can be an enlightening lens through which to view our interactions. We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships! THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more! We invite you to us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation! Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling? Listen to our conversation on YouTube. Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram. Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling. EPISODE QUESTIONS What does connection with another person feel like for you? What are some ways you might connect with the people in your family? What do they love to do? What do you love to do? How might those overlap? How do you typically react when an attempt to connect with someone goes unexpectedly? Would that change if you framed it as learning something new about them? What bids for connection do you notice and are you responding in the way you’d like to? TRANSCRIPT PAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are excited you found us, and are interested in exploring our relationships and who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we choose to move through the world. And in today’s episode, we are going to talk about connection. So, connecting with another person on an emotional level creates a feeling of being in alignment with them, of understanding and appreciating each other in that moment. Regularly cultivating connection with someone builds a stronger and stronger relationship with them. You get to know and understand each other better. You come to anticipate their needs and they, yours. So, for me, how connected I’m feeling to another person is kind of a barometer of our relationship. If I’m feeling disconnected, I more purposefully seek out connecting moments with them. A connecting moment might be sharing an activity together, from watching a movie, going for a walk, playing a game, whatever feels good together. But the really important piece for it to be connecting is that the other person needs to enjoy it. This was something that I had to learn along the way. It’s not particularly connecting for me to cajole my partner into going for a walk with me if they don’t enjoy walks. They will likely spend a good chunk of that time looking forward to it being over, rather than enjoying each other’s company. They will just have that in the back of their mind. “Have we walked long enough? Have we walked far enough? When’s it time to turn back?” So, if I want to connect with someone, whether it be a partner, child, friend, it is helpful to suggest an activity that they enjoy. They will also feel seen and heard by that. “Oh, they know how much I love to go for a walk. Yay!” Or, “to play that game, yay!” etc. That will help them feel seen as the person they are by me, because connecting with another person really is about seeing and celebrating them for who they are, not who I wish they were. That is a subtle but very important difference. And in that space of enjoying an activity together, often we can both chat more freely and openly, learning more about what’s up in each other’s days, sharing what we’ve been enjoying, and what challenges we may be feeling. That is connecting with them. It doesn’t need to be anything big, doesn’t need to be anything special, but doing things together that we enjoy opens up that space for connecting and conversations and sharing little pieces of ourselves with each other. So, what does connection look like for you, Anna? ANNA: You know I’m excited to talk about connection! I keep connection as a lens for just about everything. I often ask myself, is what I’m about to say or do, going to enhance or harm my connection with this person? And if I’m honest about that and act from a place of choosing connection, conflicts are avoided. The lines of communication remain open. Because here’s the thing. So, I’m choosing to be in relationship with this person. I love them. I want us to enjoy our time together, so I want to take ownership of who I am. I want to act from a place of being the person that I want to be. And for me, that person is kind and comionate and extends unconditional regard to my loved ones. Do I fall short of that sometimes? Yes. Yes, I do. But if I keep connection as the lens, if I check in about my actions before acting, I can choose to be that person more and more. And it becomes easier and easier. The other thing about being connected that I want to talk about is that we’re on the same team. I talk to a lot of couples who are approaching disagreements or meeting their needs as basically this zero-sum game. When, instead, we keep our connection at the forefront, we’re able to approach problems and meeting each other’s needs as a puzzle that we’re solving together. We’re on the same side. We can give each other that generous assumption, which is basically we love each other. We’re in this together. We want to help each other feel seen and heard. We want each of our needs to be met. Coming from that place leaves a world of possibilities that we cannot see when we’re tunneling in and defending our own needs without regard for the other in this oppositional, volleying back and forth, defend and receive. PAM: Exactly. Feeling connected with another person really does feel like we’re on the same team. I love that. We are in alignment. We want to help each other get our needs met and work toward accomplishing our goals. For me, that feeling of being on the same team makes all the difference in our interactions, in our connection. Conflicts, or even just conversations, aren’t that back and forth of offense and defense and winner and loser and how many times have they won and how many times have I lost, etc. It is just a team effort in creatively trying to meet everyone’s needs and wishes and help each other along. That just feels so much better, too. ANNA: So much better. PAM: One thing I also wanted to mention is that sometimes our attempts at connection may not land with the other person. They may even go sideways, like, what the heck? That is totally okay. Like really, that’s okay. It is not a failure. We don’t need to take that personally, as an attack on us. Again, like offense/defense. In fact, same team, when you bring that lens, we can often use that to learn a bit more about them. Oh, what was it about that thing? Was it the activity that they weren’t interested in? Were they busy with somebody or something that’s important to them? Maybe they’re stressed about something that’s going on in their life, like a work issue. Something else has their focus. So, it doesn’t need to be a rejection of us. It’s like, oh, there’s other things going on in our life. And we can really be so quick to take everything personally. I definitely know that I can, but when I can take that moment to , no, it doesn’t need to be about me, per se. What else is going on? It is so interesting and so often, that’s really the case. They’re not trying to piss us off or trying to make us feel bad. None of that. ANNA: It’s not at all usually. PAM: Exactly. Or in that moment, maybe we can learn a bit about ourselves or maybe both. Right? Maybe we put out-sized expectations on the other person. Maybe we didn’t end up enjoying the activity and we’re the one who’s distracted instead of engaged in the moment. Maybe we were tired, like we just felt like we needed to do this thing and we pushed ourselves to try and connect with them, but in the end, it didn’t turn out very well for us. Life happens. We learn from that experience and we try again. We are always learning. There is just so much about each other. When we’re talking about relationships, there’s so much to learn, because we are different in each moment. When we’re tired, we’re different in that moment. The things that we can do are different, the conversations that we can have, but being more open and honest about those moments, it is so helpful for relationships. And it also helps to be open to noticing when your partner or your child is trying to connect with you and try to be responsive in those moments. If we are stuck in our heads, it can feel like we’re the only one prioritizing the relationship. We feel like we’re the only ones inviting and inviting. But if we can notice, so often, we may not realize what it is at first, but when they invite us to them, chances are they are looking to connect with us. And it may look very different than how we might want to connect with them, but a connection is just as valuable either way. And, in fact, it enhances relationship when the connections go both ways. There’s a term that we toss around, we learned about last year or so, was it? Bids for connection. You want to talk about that a little bit more? ANNA: Yeah, I definitely want to touch on bids for connection. I think the idea comes from the Gottman Institute. The funny thing about them is they don’t always look straight forward like, “Hey, I want to feel closer to you now.” Sometimes it looks like picking a fight or a grumpy comment. Sometimes it looks like asking for something that we can do ourselves. “Hey, can you get me water, even though you have to walk in front of me to go get the water that I’m asking for?” Sometimes it looks like pulling away or getting quiet. And as we learn more about each other, we see the bids for what they are and the underlying need that they’re trying to meet. And then we can check in and respond with kindness and that can open up the lines of communication and avoid a situation where people don’t feel heard. Love languages can also play a role here. Knowing how we give and receive love can help make sure that what we’re putting out is love is being received as such. But with the bids, like you said, it’s so interesting, because we’ll be in our heads about, I want to make this relationship better, and maybe that person’s telling us a story from work and we’re actually still in our head thinking, “We’re not doing relationship things,” or we’re not doing the thing the way it looks in our head. But really, wanting to share that bit from work or the child wanting to share the bit about their game, that is the bid for connection. That is them wanting to bring us into their world. And so, for me, I just want to keep really open to that. I just want to be open, so that I’m seeing that in the people that are around me that I love, and that I’m acknowledging that and I’m responding. And yes, like you said earlier, sometimes we have capacity issues to deal with. Sometimes there just isn’t enough, or the time is not right, or we’re tired. But I find even in those situations, when I see the bid, I’m able to acknowledge the bid. Even if I can’t dive in fully to maybe what they’re needing for the, in that moment, it’s so much better than brushing it off. PAM: Yes, when you can acknowledge it and be a bit transparent by saying, “Ah, that’s wonderful. I love that. I can’t wait to you, or I can’t wait to hear that story. I’m just really tired right now. Can we do it in the morning? Can we do it after I’ve had a nap? Or I’m just going to sit here and have a tea or a coffee for a few minutes,” to acknowledge so that they feel seen and heard in that moment. And there was one other thing that came up. So, as we’ve been talking this whole time about connection, and you touched on this and I think it’s super important, is the idea that we can have these visions in our head of what being in relationship means. And it can mean all sorts of fancy things in our head. We can have these visions of, we need to go out on a date every week, right? We need to go outside of the house, all these pieces. And the everyday connection doesn’t count. But, truly, in the everyday connection, that is the foundation. Those are the connections that we’re building. It doesn’t mean we don’t do the bigger things. It just means the relationship isn’t on hold between the bigger things. ANNA: Exactly. And this is what we were talking about that I said in the first episode that we’re going to keep repeating, it’s that outside voice, because I think we come into it maybe from movies, whatever, that we had this idea of what relationships look like, but it really is the everyday of just sharing the ups and downs and getting the things done around the house and just moving through our days together that builds that foundation, that then we can do all these other fun things and big things. Because the reality is, the big fun things are going to be sprinkled throughout our year. But if that’s what we’re pinning our hopes on, that’s not going to get us through. So, we have to figure out how to keep that connection alive and rich and wonderful in those everyday moments. And it is listening for those bids. It is being available. PAM: Yes. And just think for a moment, when you have that connection going throughout your days, your every days, you’re already pretty well connected when those bigger moments come. And how much more fun are those when you’re already connected, instead of thinking- ANNA: We’re going to get it there! PAM: We have to go and relearn each other for our weekend away. Let’s reconnect, finally. ANNA: Right. And isn’t that why some of those things go awry? Sometimes, we have this idea like, we’re going to have this amazing date, or we’re going to take this amazing trip and then it ends up falling flat. But I think so much of that is because maybe we haven’t been tending to those pieces in between, and so, we’re pinning our hopes on this big time away or this big thing, and it falls a little bit short. So, yeah, I think that’s super interesting to watch for and think about. PAM: Yes. Yes. Okay. So, I have some questions to share for people to ponder as they’re exploring connections, alongside all the ones we’ve already talked about. So, what does connection with another person feel like for you? What are some ways you might connect with the people in your family? What do they love to do? What do you love to do? What do you love to do together? How can these different things overlap? It doesn’t always need to be one thing. Sitting on the couch together or playing a game together, those are all perfectly wonderful ways to connect. How do you typically react when an attempt to connect, a bid for connection that we’re putting out, goes unexpectedly? So, when you offer up, “Oh, let’s sit down and have a coffee together, or a tea together,” and they say no, how do you typically react? How does that feel? Would that change if you framed it as a learning something new about them? “Oh, I didn’t know they were really into the thing they were doing. Oh, I didn’t know that thing went strange at work today, and you’re really worried about that,” because those things going awry are actually opportunities to learn more. And then, again, let’s think about the bits for connection coming the other way. Just keep an eye open for that over the next little while. I love what you said that the bids don’t always look perfect. As in, “Let’s do this together!” It can be, “Oh, my gosh, I had such a rough day at work. I want to vent about it.” That is a bid for connection. That is some another person is looking for. And we can learn more about their lives. It can be a child really frustrated about something that went wrong and what they’re trying to do, and they come to you. That’s a bid for connection, for some in what they are looking to do. Maybe it’s the infamous, “I’m bored,” you know? They’re just looking to chat with somebody for a while. There are so many possibilities when you just open up and start looking for what might potentially be bids for connections, opportunities for connection. ANNA: Absolutely. PAM: Thank you so much for listening and we’ll see you next time. Bye.

We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and this time, we’re talking about how it’s not the unschooling! It can be really common for newer unschoolers to blame unschooling for the things that come up in their family lives. Unschooling was a big new change in their lives, and so it can feel like any problems that arise are probably due to that big new change. For conflicts about screen time or bedtime or food choices or communication, it might feel easier to blame unschooling, because then there’s something to change, something to fix, so that maybe the problem will go away. But often when parents really dig down and are honest about what’s going on for their families, they will often find that it’s not really about unschooling. And so, examining this area can be really helpful when we come up against challenges or have areas of discomfort. In our conversation, we talked about how to approach the issues that come up in our lives regardless of whether our kids go to school or not, and the potential benefits of just forgetting about the word “unschooling” for a while! It was a really fun conversation and we hope you find it helpful on your unschooling journey! THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, coaching, and more! The Living Joyfully Network Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram. Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling. Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling? We invite you to us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about ing our children’s autonomy. Come and be part of the conversation! So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ANNA: Hi everyone! I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully, and I’m ed by my co-hosts, Pam Laricchia and Erika Ellis. Before we get started, I wanted to encourage you to check out our shop where you can find books, courses, coaching, and information about the Living Joyfully Network. The shop has resources and for every stage of your journey. You can find the link in the show notes, or you can visit LivingJoyfullyShop.com. Okay, so today’s episode is called, It’s Not The Unschooling, and I’m really excited about this one. But Erika, do you want to get us started? ERIKA:  I do. I think it might sound a little funny on an unschooling podcast to have an episode called, It’s Not the Unschooling, but we actually had a monthly theme in the Network by this name a while back, because it can really be a helpful lens when we come up against challenges or have areas of discomfort. So, I thought I would just introduce the idea. Basically, it can be really common, especially for newer unschoolers, but definitely not exclusively newer unschoolers, to blame unschooling for various issues that come up in their family lives. I mean, unschooling was this big new change in their lives, and so it can feel like any problems that arise are probably due to that big new change. So, for example, conflicts about screen time or bedtime or food choices or communication when kids are making decisions or the family’s making decisions. It might feel easier to blame unschooling because then there’s something to change, something to fix, so that maybe the problem will go away. But often when parents really dig down and are honest about what’s going on for their families, they will often find that it’s not really about unschooling. After all, unschooling, the way we describe it here is just living life. And so whether children are in school or not, whether you’re parenting in a more mainstream or authoritarian way or not, parents and children will still be figuring it out. How to manage screen time, what to eat, when and where to sleep, what decisions they’re going to make. And so unschooling isn’t what causes those issues to exist, and we all will grapple with them in some way at some point as a family. And so often if I just play around with the thought of, would my kids being in school or would me being a strict authoritarian parent make this situation any easier? The answer is an easy no, it would only add more layers of difficulty.  And so what I love about what I learned through the network and through my own unschooling journey is that it encourages me to focus on how my relationships I have with my children are feeling and it actually makes navigating some of those more challenging parts of life easier. Easier sometimes feels like not quite the right word, because it’s sometimes not easy at all, but I feel more ed and feel better moving through the issues because of the relationships that we have. And so I could feel good about my choices when I’m prioritizing my relationships and treating my children the way they want to be treated. PAM: I love that very much and I am very excited about this topic because it was something that I experienced quite a bit as we moved to unschooling, because my kids were a little bit older, they were in school when I discovered unschooling. And I think one of the big pieces as I was playing around with it was recognizing that what unschooling did was open up so many more choices for me. The first one, they don’t have to go to school. They don’t have to do this. I, as a parent, don’t have to do that. It opened up so many choices just through discovering and exploring what it meant.   It was the discovery of unschooling that opened up my eyes to the fact that this could be a choice, that there wasn’t just one right way. So it was easy for others looking in and just blame the unschooling. But what I realized exactly as you were saying, Erika, when I asked myself, but if they went back to school, how would this be different? Because I realized it’s one of those cases where my eyes were open and I couldn’t just go back and close them because I changed something else. Even if they go to school, I know it’s still a choice. Now, I will forever know that that’s a choice. Same with all the other issues. It was for me, the unschooling journey that opened my eyes to so much of it, to the relationships, to even more consensual day-to-day living. So, even though I could kind of point to unschooling as the catalyst, it wasn’t the fault of unschooling, things wouldn’t go back. I would not be comfortable going back to life before discovering it, even if at this point. At that point had they ever chosen or wanted to go back to school or life circumstances changed and they needed to go back to school for a while or, you know, whatever came up, I was now a changed person. I couldn’t go back to who I was before, but it still meant it wasn’t the fault of unschooling, right? Even if they went back to school, I would still need to make those parenting choices and have conversations with my partner and now conversations with my kids, et cetera, et cetera. ANNA: Yeah, I think it’s so interesting. Why I am excited to talk about this is what we’ve seen, especially on the network, but really even back in the day of the Yahoo groups, when people came with we’re unschooling and this is terrible. This thing is terrible and we kept thinking, okay, but that’s not really the unschooling. But what we noticed was that it was a place to get stuck. Right? It was a place where they lost all creativity and as soon as we all would start talking, it happens on the network too. We’d just start talking, well, have you talked to them about this? Or What does that feel like? Or, how’s that relationship going? Or what are these other contextual pieces that are happening in your family? Then you see them just open up a little bit. Because it’s not about the unschooling. We can just start talking about what’s working for our family, what’s working for each individual, what it does it feel like when we have these conversations. And so we kind of challenged people in that month to just kind of let go of the word unschooling, which again, like you said,  Erika, it seems that people are going, wait a minute, isn’t this the unschooling podcast? But it really is about life and relationships, at its core. I think if you find that the word is causing problems in your discussion, whether it be with your spouse or your mother-in-law or someone else, let it go because there isn’t one way to be an unschooler. And I think that’s another big piece. I think when we are looking at that, where we’re kind of blaming the unschooling, we’re putting unschooling ahead of our connection with our kids or what’s actually happening for the individual people. And that’s what we want to be cautious about. And interesting. Pam, you and I have talked about this before, that unschooling wasn’t something that I talked about with my kids, it wasn’t like a day-to-day conversation, especially when they were younger. It really was just like you said, Erika, we’re living life and we’re figuring things out about each other, and we’re being in relationship and we’re exploring the world.  And so I think it’s so interesting to just let go of something that might be causing you to narrow in your focus. And so that’s why I’m excited to talk about it today too. Because I think especially if you’re finding there are some rubs with your partner or with people in your family, see if that’s at play because a lot of times it is. ERIKA: I love that. And it kind of feels like two things. So, one is this word unschooling, is the word a trigger for someone in your family? Is the word a trigger for yourself? Does it bring up a lot of feelings of, I have to do something a certain way because that’s a sign that maybe there are some other layers wrapped up in there. And then the other part is just reaching for what was familiar, reaching for what I knew as a kid, or the control, right? Because we’ve seen that when things are stressful, when you get overwhelmed, you want to grab for control. That’s just like a human impulse. What can I control to get a handle on this situation?  And so maybe you’ll find yourself thinking things would just be so much easier if I could just make my kids go to bed at eight. Would it help me make my life better if I could just control them in some way. And so it can feel like a solution when it first pops into your head that the solution might be, I just need more control. But then if you really start thinking about what that means, it’s really about I’m going to stop listening to my kids. I don’t care what they say anymore. This is damaging my relationship with them if I go down that path of thinking control will make my life better.  It just feels like a possible solution if I’m getting super overwhelmed. And so I think reaching for that familiar, well other parents just tell their kids what to do and they have to do it. And that makes life easy. If I follow the full thought process of what that means, it means disconnecting from my kids. It means going against the things that I believe about the world, that everyone knows what’s best for them and I want to them in learning about themselves. And so it’s separate from even the word unschooling. Those are two different things. Either the reaching for control or the blaming, this word, this scary word of unschooling when you first get to it. I think it’s really interesting and digging down beneath, what’s really going on for me? What’s the context that’s causing me to have this kind of strong response to the idea of unschooling? PAM: And I think that’s just such a beautiful and important stage of the unschooling journey.  And as I was thinking about it at the beginning, because this was a bigger thing at the beginning of our journey, because everything seemed to point to unschooling like I was talking about before. And I loved your idea, Anna, about just not using the word, try to have conversations for a little bit without using that word because it kind of becomes a catchall. But if you can get underneath it, to really better describe, it helped me with conversations with my partner because unschooling was often coming up, but it was like, oh, but it’s grown kind of beyond that. And I think another thing that can trip us up, and we have had a whole series on the podcast about unschooling rules, but sometimes we can pull up the, oh, if we’re unschooling, we do this right? And that can really trip us up too, because that’s us conflating so many of the ideas that kind of come with unschooling. So, parenting styles and relationships and all those tools and different aspects of life. We talk about them, in a way that helps unschooling thrive, which is really just learning through living this life. That’s where you eventually get to. But I do think at the beginning you can want to do unschooling really well, want to be a great unschooling parent. What does it mean? I have those check boxes, right? And then unschooling gets into our minds in every aspect. And then it is so tempting to blame the unschooling when we start to get frustrated. Why if I just, if they just listened, I’d have this perfect solution and everybody. This would go so much more smoothly if we just all did this one thing, which is that kind of slippery slope. If you’re valuing relationships, if you want to make that a priority in your life, which is part of choosing unschooling, right? It’s really hard to have an authoritarian, relationship or parenting style with your kids and have unschooling thrive. So, really just trying to not use the word unschooling for a while can help you get to the foundations of what does this actually mean to me? And yeah, go back and listen to the unschooling rules podcasts, too. Because it’s not like they’re wrong, it’s just that they don’t have the context. If we just jump to unschooling says we don’t have a bedtime. And then you just take that in. There is just so little context for you to get your feet wet and really understand what’s going on. So for a while, just not using that word I think can be really helpful to recognize how much of it really isn’t the unschooling. ANNA: It’s true. I want to go back to what you were talking about, Erika, because I think that was an important piece for me. Because we can go to that quick snap judgment of, well this wouldn’t be a problem if we did this, or this is why this is a problem. Taking that extra time, slowing things down, and actually walking through what it would look like helped me understand where I wanted to spend my energy. So, if we look at just school to take an example. Well, if they were in school, then we wouldn’t have whatever this problem is or this sibling fight during the day or this, whatever thing’s been going on. If I walked through that, I recognized we’d be bringing a whole host of other things into our life. And so did I want to be at service of this other institution, making our days and weeks and years rotate around that schedule? Did I want to be worrying about whether they’re going to do homework or this or that? Or did I want to figure out this problem in front of me, which has nothing to do with school, or not school, which is just basically, maybe we need something. Maybe I need to be hearing what’s happening between my two girls, or we need to figure out something else in our life. And so for me, it was about where do I want to spend my energy?  Which speaks to what you were saying, Pam, and I want to spend my energy on creating strong relationships. I don’t want to spend my energy fitting into another system necessarily. And if my child said I want to go into the system, absolutely be there to them, that feels very different. But if I’m just getting frustrated and saying, oh, it’s because we’re unschooling. That’s why they’re staying up all night or doing X. And it’s interesting because I think when you’ve been in other worlds, we have unschooled all along because it just happened naturally for us. But in the early years, David was working in a corporate environment. And would just hear about the nighttime frustrations and all the things that were happening with very mainstream families, choosing all the conventional paths. And so it really does help to walk through it.  That’s where it gets us stuck, right? It gets us stuck on, it’s the unschooling, when in fact these are broader issues when we’re talking about food and sleep and parenting and sibling relationships, and all of that has really nothing to do with unschooling. An unschooling environment can actually make some of those things easier, but it’s not a cure all and it’s not the cause. So, watch for when your thoughts are being limited by that, to just say, is this really a problem that would exist if we weren’t unschooling? And what would it look like and what other things might it be inviting in if we did? Because I think it just, and for me, that’s always, I always talk about just slowing it down, just giving myself a pause, thinking a little bit more about it, walking through some of those scenarios, how would I feel in those different scenarios before I just run with the snap judgment and say it’s the unschooling. ERIKA: Yeah, I had a thought when you were talking about the belief that unschooling means everything’s always going to be easy and great. That also might be a barrier here. Where we’re thinking, if I am having a problem, it’s definitely that we’re doing unschooling wrong, or that unschooling is the issue. Because we’re not supposed to have any problems anymore. I found unschooling, now it should be easy. And so that could be another little place where we could get stuck and just have to think through, do that thought experiment that always works for me. Would it be an easier or a better life for me and my kids if we did this, if we sent them to school, if whatever. It just opens up so many thoughts. And then I also feel like what you were talking about went back to Pam’s thing about the unschooling journey changing us. It’s about opening our minds to all of the possibilities.  I know you’ve talked about this before Anna before, that kind of comfort and safety that comes from being in the system and not being responsible for the different decisions that you’re making. And so there could be something about those mainstream parents that David was hearing, where it’s like they don’t really feel like it’s on them though. They’re having the bedtime struggles, but they’ve heard what you’re supposed to do and they’re doing what you’re supposed to do. And if it’s not working, it’s just, not my fault, nothing we could do. It’s just really hard and we can complain about it, but I think the unschooling journey opened my mind, like you were saying, Pam, to just all the choices. These are the actual choices, and we don’t have to be doing the one way. There is no one right way. And so now that I know that, there isn’t really a way to go back to trusting the system to make all of the decisions for me, or believing that there’s a right way and trying to find it, that’s just not how I can think of it anymore. And so, in that way, unschooling is to blame, but only in that, now I know about all the choices. I do think that part’s interesting. PAM: Yeah, I love that it really does just kind of open your eyes to so much. At first I thought, especially since my kids were leaving school, okay, we’re not doing school so how are we going to learn instead? But then through unschooling that first year, it just opened up a whole world of new choices and curiosity. Hopefully, I don’t forget. There were two things I wanted to mention. One is when we’re doing this processing, I always go back to the beginner’s mind. When I tunnel in and I hear myself saying things like, but what’s the right way? What’s the best way? Is unschooling the best way and everybody should be doing it? If I’m using language like that, it’s a clue. I don’t have to tell myself I’m wrong at all, but I want to open up to more possibilities because then I’m looking only for the things that match the one thing that I think is the right answer. And that just throws me off. I’m not going to really understand the context. We talk about context so much. I’m not really going to see the people, the actual real people in my family. Which kind of leads to the other point I wanted to make.  When you’re hearing those different stories from other parents. I think often the thought is, I’m following all the recommendations, doing all the right things to get them to go to sleep, et cetera, and they’re not going to sleep. Then they can start blaming their kids for being wrong. They are not doing this. There is something wrong with them. I’m telling them, you go and you lie down and you listen and the lights off and you’ll go to sleep. And not seeing the thing that we talk about so much, that people are different. I trying to help my kids go to sleep before when they were in school. That whole kind of evening thing, trying to help them individually and how they liked to get to sleep. But so many of the recommendations were like, you say goodnight, turn off the light, close the door. They’ve had their snack, they’ve had their drink. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And so then you really think that I’m doing all the right things. My kids are just not performing correctly. It’s a fascinating piece. And yes. Think we just lost Erika there for a second.  ANNA: I know. So I’m hoping she’s going to, she’s going to pop back in, but I’m going to keep talking. Okay, good, she’s coming back to us. Something she said I thought was really important and there was one little nuance I wanted to add to it that got me sparked when she was talking. So basically that piece of, sometimes it’s easier to hand over our responsibility to the system, right? Well we’re doing all the things we’re supposed to do, so then I’m not responsible. If they don’t get educated at school, it’s the school’s problem. It’s not here.  So I think it’s interesting to think about. I want to ask myself, am I wanting to offload some responsibility? But then another nuance to that is what’s so beautiful about what we describe and talk about is that it isn’t all on me. We’re each on our own journey and it is about helping and facilitating each other.  So it’s not like this one thing needs to have all the answers. And then if I’m going to let go of that system, then I have to have all the answers. Me, Anna, the mom, the whatever, you know? No. We are exploring this together. We’re figuring out what works together. And that’s why for me, whether they choose to go to school or not go to school is really irrelevant. It really is just, are we ing the path that we all are wanting to take and exploring things in the way that we want to explore? So I think watching that piece was helpful for me. Am I trying to not have the responsibility and then, okay, if I take it on am I taking on just my pieces or am I trying to take on everybody’s pieces thinking I’m the only person that can solve it, fix it. Thinking I’m ultimately responsible. I think parents are handed that a lot in our culture, right? That you’re responsible for raising your children. I guess what I learned for myself and my core beliefs are just that again, we’re all humans on our own individual journey, and I love being there to walk with my kids, them, and facilitate things. But in the end, I’m not responsible for their life. That’s really up to them, the choices they make, and I can provide information and I can , and I can give them the context of what’s happening around. But ultimately what I see is that they’re quite capable of making those choices for themselves. And so I think there’s some interesting pieces to explore there. If you find yourself wobbling a little bit to go, okay, wait, am I taking on too much? Am I wanting to give it away? Because what’s interesting is when we give it away to a system, we’re kind of giving away other people’s power as well. So is there a discussion there? I don’t know. That is just what sparked when you were talking, Erika, so I’m glad you’re back.  ERIKA: I don’t think I have more to add about that, but I do love the things we talked about, just noticing those little things where it’s rubbing or where I’m reaching for control, reaching for a solution, or the one right way. Any of those things, I think that is kind of a sign to start digging a little bit deeper.  PAM: I would take that and then not using the word unschooling for a while and see what you discover. I think that will be super interesting to see. Well, how else would I describe it? Because so much of it is just life and relationships and who we want to be. ANNA: Yeah, absolutely. So, thank you both so much. And to everyone listening to this conversation. I really enjoyed it and I hope you did as well. And I hope you’ll consider ing us at the Living Joyfully Network. We love to dive into these kinds of topics and think about it in all the different ways, and we have such amazing families there that are into these discussions as well. So we would love to welcome you. To learn more and to us. Just follow the link in the show notes, or you can go to the LivingJoyfullyshop.com and click on community in the menu. Thank you again for ing us. And thank you, the two of you. It was great to see you. PAM: Thanks very much. Bye bye! ERIKA: Bye!

In this week’s flashback episode, we’re sharing an interview that Pam had in 2016 with Lauren Seaver about deschooling. At the time of the interview, Lauren Seaver was an unschooling mom to 9-year-old River. She first considered the possibility of homeschooling way back when she was in college to become a teacher. Life took some turns, but the opportunity to try out unschooling with River arose and it was a great fit. Pam met Lauren at the Childhood Redefined Unschooling Summit in New York and really enjoyed chatting with her about her deschooling experience! I think my biggest concern was that our unschooling life didn’t match the picture of what unschooling looked like in my mind. I had these unschooling fantasies about what my own personal unschooling path would have looked like if I were unschooled as a child. Letting go of expectations was so huge for me to be able to really relish what was actually happening in our unschooling lives. ~ Lauren Seaver QUESTIONS FOR LAUREN Can you share with us a bit about you and your family and how you first came across the idea of unschooling? What was the biggest concern that drove your choice to move to unschooling this last year? What were some of your fears or uncertainties as you began unschooling? What has your move to unschooling looked like? Pretty smooth? A few bumps? Have you talked to River specifically about it? Or have you found the changes to be more internal to you, with you choosing to change how you respond to River and the expectations you have of him? Can you tell us a bit about how your definition of learning has changed since discovering unschooling? Did you find a difference between understanding the principles of unschooling intellectually and living them day to day? What changes have you seen in River since leaving school? What’s been the hardest part of your unschooling journey so far? What has surprised you most about your journey so far? THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more! We invite you to us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation! Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling? Listen to our conversation on YouTube. Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram. Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling. TRANSCRIPT PAM: Hi everyone, I’m Pam Laricchia from livingjoyfully.ca and today I’m here with Lauren Seaver. Hi, Lauren! LAUREN: Hi Pam! PAM: Just to introduce Lauren a bit to everyone, I had the pleasure of meeting her earlier this year at the Childhood Redefined Summit in Canandaigua, New York. Her enthusiasm for life is contagious and I’m so excited to dive into her deschooling experience, so let’s get started! First can you share a bit with us about you and your family and how you first came across the idea of unschooling? LAUREN: Yes. So I have one son, River, and he is nine years old and he is amazing and hilarious. He is a showman and he loves to dance and rap and ride bikes and play video games and he loves playing with his friends. We live with my boyfriend Aaron and our hamster Chewy. (Pam and Lauren laugh) Chewy is very important here. He really is. And River also spends about two days a week at his Dad’s and stepmom’s house, so we are a blended family. His Dad and I separated when River was four but we have a really good relationship and River always had a great relationship with both of us and our partners so we’re just really lucky. I also run my own business and when I’m working River usually is with my boyfriend Aaron or with his Dad. All of us have alternating schedules so it really makes unschooling doable while you’re working. We just feel really lucky. We also live very close to my parents and my sister and our family is very ive of unschooling which is so awesome. So that’s kind of us. And the story of how we came into unschooling actually starts a long time ago, even before River was born. I was going to school to become a teacher so I was in college and as part of that I got to observe in a lot of different elementary classrooms and through that process I learned that not all teachers loved children and some teachers don’t even like children and it horrified me. I thought, “oh wow, it’s almost like luck of the draw if you get a teacher that really likes children and loves learning,” and this was shocking to me. It was then while I was in college I thought maybe I should consider homeschooling because I love kids and I love learning. Gosh, wouldn’t it be fun to learn with my own kids! So already before meeting River’s Dad I was thinking homeschooling is where we’re going to go. I hadn’t heard of unschooling yet. So then when I had River around five or six years later I had a home birth which is kind of alternative and with that home birth community there’s the attachment parenting community and all of that sort of leads into the homeschooling community. So it was almost like I had it all laid out for me. Through this attachment parenting community one of my friends recommended the Consensual Living yahoo group, which was created by Anna Brown from your podcast, and Pat Robinson, who are two amazing unschooling moms. And from there I learned of the Shine with Unschooling yahoo group, and the Always Learning yahoo group, and I was just like, “Oh, this is it! This is what I’ve been looking for!” Because I knew from my own experience as a teacher and as a person that we always, all of us, learn best when we are interested and ionately engaged in what we’re learning about and what we are doing, so it just was a no-brainer. Ok, we have to unschool, this is what we are going to do. So that was the plan and so River was two at that time and I did a lot of paradigm shifting and we really lived in that manner as much as you can when they are so little. We didn’t limit TV or games or food or anything and that just seemed really normal and natural and it just worked. And you know, meeting River’s needs in creative ways and just living joyfully. So that was great. And then when River was around four his Dad and I actually separated and then later divorced for all sorts of reasons, so everything kind of changed. I went to work full time out of the home and suddenly homeschooling and unschooling no longer seemed to be feasible. River had gone to this unique preschool that was two days a week in a homeschooling mom’s house and I was allowed sit next to him at the table and hang out and be there as long as he needed me. He really loved it so I was like well this wasn’t so bad maybe we can find a schooly option where he can go while I’m working. We found a local school that was really alternative and their focus was very much on kids learning about what they were interested in and it almost had a democratic slant to it so I was like, “Alright, this could work.” He tried their summer camp for one day with the teacher that was with the youngest kids and he loved it so I thought, “Alright, let’s try it.” He ended up being in that lady’s classroom for two years and he loved it. He would run in every day. He would wake up and want to go to school and he loved it so much and I was like “Oh God, thank God, this is all working out.” Because all that I cared about was that he loved what he was doing because I knew that he would learn whatever he needed to learn as long as he was loving what he was doing. And he and I are both pretty outgoing and love to be around people so I think that was part of what made this so fun for him. So the first two years were great and I was like, “Alright, this is great.” But then he began his third year of school and it was with a different teacher and this was second grade. He was seven and then turning eight that year. It was totally different. Everything changed. Even though this lady was really nice and the school still this alternative school, he didn’t love it anymore and half way through the year I was dragging him out of bed to get him to go to school. I felt like I was forcing him to go to school and that was against everything I believed in because I so deeply believe, then and now, that we learn best when we love what we are doing. It was clear that if I have to drag you out of bed you are not loving going here. I really felt like we needed a change. At this point I had quit my full time job and had just started my own business that would end up giving me a lot more flexibility and I brought up the idea of homeschooling to River. He was like “No, no, I can’t. I want to be with my friends, I want to go to school. I really like it, it’s fine. No.” And so through the rest of the school year I just tried to him as much as possible and kept bringing up the option of homeschooling. At the end of that year, which was, I think it ended in 2015, the school actually closed due to funding issues, and I said, “Ok, your school is closing, do you want to try homeschooling?” He was like, “Ok, let’s try homeschooling.” As soon as school ended and we started homeschooling it was like, “Oh my god, this is amazing, this is what we have we been waiting for!” And we never looked back. He loved it and I loved it. So that’s our crazy, windy path to unschooling. I was always into it and wanted to do it and felt like we were supposed to, and then our lives were different and we didn’t see it as a possibility. So now we’ve been doing it for probably a year and three months I believe. Because I really count that, I count May of last year. In my heart, we started earlier. So that’s how we learned about it and now finally chose it. PAM: That is awesome. I really loved hearing about how your perspective evolved through all that, the way you took those unschooling principles, or at least that perspective on learning and ing each other, and have woven that into not only, as you said, your blended families and your extended family that is nearby, and right through always looking at River to guide you through those choices, right? LAUREN: Absolutely. And I’m so grateful for that because that has been the foundation of our parenting and our lifestyle from the beginning. And I love that. It’s so wonderful. In all of my relationships, not just with River, it’s amazing. It’s very far reaching. PAM: That was a wonderful story! What was your biggest concern that drove your choice to move to unschooling? LAUREN: So, like I said, River was not wanting to go to school. It changed from running in, to “I don’t want to get up.” The biggest issue I felt was reading. The school he was going to was really friendly and alternative. They have different, positive names for things, but he was basically in a remedial reading group and even though the teachers are kind and gentle, he still had reading homework and he felt this pressure to learn to read. He felt so much pressure way before he was ready and I knew this. I was like, “Wait, why are you pushing this? He will learn to read when he is ready. We don’t need to do this homework. We don’t need to do any of this stuff. It’s not helpful.” I’m a ionate book lover and I knew that if he was just left alone to explore words and books and text and whatever, in whatever way it interested him, reading would come naturally whenever he was ready. And I was really sad thinking that this kid who was so excited and awesome and hilarious and talented and enthusiastic was having a possibility for future love of learning squashed out of him by this experience, this emphasis that school was placing on this skill that he was not ready to learn. I was heartbroken knowing he was feeling bad about himself, feeling bad about his own abilities around the idea of reading. When he would talk to me about it, the message he was receiving was basically you should be able to read these books right now and you are a failure because you can’t. When I think back to it, I think, “How did I let him keep going to school?” Because it’s so awful. It was not the school’s intention. They were just trying to help him, but they are a school. They were like, “You need to learn this by this time.” That’s just how they think. He would even say, “I’m bad at reading. I hate reading.” I was just like, “Oh, this is awful.” So that was my number one reason and then the other real reason was that I felt like I was supposed to be doing this all along and then this moment in our lives opened up where I realized, “Ok, now this is a real feasible time, a real possible time for us to do this, so let’s do it.” So that was a huge motivator. PAM: Yeah, it was something in the back of your mind always and you were paying attention and you saw when those possibilities started to come together. Yeah, that’s cool. And what’s so interesting too is that whole reading piece. That was very much Lissy’s experience at school too. When she came home it was all, “I hate reading. I don’t want to read. I can’t read.” All those messages. And we just made sure to totally back off and it took about a year for her to move through, move past all those messages that she had gotten. She was in second grade when she left too. LAUREN: The same as River, yeah. It’s amazing. It’s like if we could just as a culture look at people, just let them be. They’re going to get it, you just got to leave them alone. It adds all this unnecessary baggage. It’s so detrimental. PAM: Yes, it is. You mentioned that you learned a lot about homeschooling and unschooling when River was young before he was going to school. When you finally jumped into it—a year and three months ago—did you still have some fears and uncertainties? LAUREN: Well, at first when we started we were literally returning to this homebirth and attachment parenting community. So the first feeling was, “Oh my god, we are home. This is so awesome.” And all these people are so weird like us, well, not like us but just sharing similar values. And seeing my old friends and his old friends and he was like: “I knew this kid when he was a baby.” It was really great. So I wasn’t even thinking of the fears then. When I think about it, the first few months I think my biggest concern was that our unschooling life didn’t match the picture of what unschooling looked like in my mind. I had these unschooling fantasies about what my own personal unschooling path would have looked like if I were unschooled as a child. I’m one of those people who throws themselves into whatever they are learning. When I was a kid I was into pioneer days, the mid-1800s and Westward Extension, and when I was into that, that was my whole life. I had a pioneer dress with a bonnet I wore and I had the American Girl Doll and I read all the books. And all the books I read were about the Oregon trail and that time period. And I played the Oregon Trail Video Game and made food from that time period, all that. So I am the type who throws myself into stuff and it becomes my entire life. Then River and I started this unschooling path and I was noticing, “Wow, River doesn’t learn exactly how I learn.” You’d think that wouldn’t be a big deal but, for whatever reason, I had envisioned something like it. When he was really interested in tornados and lightning, he didn’t want to be thrown into a world of weather. And I could get all the books out from the library about weather and he was like, “I’m not looking at those. I don’t care.” It was a really big deal for me to learn, “Oh wait a second, just because this is how I learn it doesn’t mean that’s how he’s going to learn, and just because I thought it was going to look this way doesn’t mean that’s what it’s going to look like.” So I think just letting go of expectations was so huge for me to be able to really relish what was actually happening in our unschooling lives. So letting go of those shoulds and just being there and actually witnessing what was happening was what helped me to see “Oh my god, he is learning so much and look at the way he does it. It’s so fascinating. And what he is interested in.” So that was big for me. So I don’t know if it’s as much fear as it is just letting go of baggage. I think that’s kind of a key piece in my unschooling experience and in our unschooling experience. Me letting go of baggage. PAM: I think that’s such a great point, Lauren. Because when you mentioned the phrase “unschooling fantasies,” as parents we are learning about unschooling and we are excited enough about it to want to try it with our families. We build such a picture in our head of what it’s going to look like and truly it’s not surprising that it’s based in our own experience and how we would like to learn if we had this possibility. That’s such a great point. Something to really pay attention to, to shift the focus to seeing how they like to live their days and how they like to learn, and ing them. Of course, we are going to start from our own perspective, but to be open like you said to dropping those expectations and seeing what actually comes out of it, right? LAUREN: I know for me, the shifting my focus from the imaginary child that I had envisioned before I had River, to being like, “Oh, this amazing, complex person in front of me who is his own person and actually just him and celebrating him,” versus like whatever I had expected, has been probably one of the biggest aspects of parenting that has been a growing process. Wow, they really pop out themselves and you just are there to witness them and them as much as you can and love them. And grow by being around them. PAM: It really is, it really is. I love the way you explain that. And that leads very nicely into our next question. I’m wondering about what your move to unschooling has looked like, whether it has been pretty smooth, you know, you talked a bit about letting go of your expectations. Have you talked to River specifically about unschooling itself, the processes or principles behind it or have you found as you have been talking about the changes being more internal to you, so most of your focus has been on how you are choosing to observe River and how you are changing your responses to him and letting go of the expectations? LAUREN: Yeah, definitely. I don’t think I talked to River much about it other than to him and living everyday life and he knows we homeschool. I’m sure I used the word unschooling and said: “This is the kind of homeschooling we are doing.” Because there were points in the beginning when he was like, “Wait, aren’t we supposed to be doing something? Should I do some maths?” And I asked, “Do you want to?” And I might write out some questions for him if he really wanted me to at that time. And then he would say, “Ok, I know how to do this, that’s fine.” I think he had a couple of concerns in the very beginning but now he is just totally into it. I think our foundation of unschooling friends has been very helpful, has helped us ease into this. He has just been loving life and exploring things of interest to him and it’s just better than I could have thought. It has been pretty seamless and the majority of the changes have totally been internal for me. And they continue to be. River is naturally really awesome at doing the things he loves and having fun which is where all of our learning is. You don’t have to work on this stuff. Where 99% of the process is me again just letting go of my own baggage and assumptions and things that help me to better connect with him and better celebrate him and our lives. And I really think having a community of other unschooling parents locally as well as online to reach out to and explore my own stuff with has been really helpful. And, like you said, I went to the Childhood Redefined Unschooling Summit with you and Anne and it really shifted my perspective so dramatically. It just really helped me to see things in such a more positive way and I only realized afterwards it had such an impact on me that I felt changed and I acted in a different manner. It’s hard for me to put into words but I noticed that I have a lot of power in our home. I could change the energy of our home with my own choices and the viewpoint I’m bringing into every interaction. That was amazing to me. I really noticed if I shifted into a more positive, loving, peaceful place where I’m celebrating what’s happening, and what River’s celebrating, and what Aaron is celebrating—everything changes. It is mind-blowing that I really impact this family so much. We all do, but I have a lot of power inside of myself. I think that’s my work as an unschooling parent: to do that work within myself that allows me to see and celebrate River for being him and his own unique self, and then to him in ways that are best for him on whatever path that he chooses, and just our connection. PAM: That’s lovely. I’m glad you enjoyed it! LAUREN: I can’t explain it. The whole idea of “Oh, I paradigm-shifted back when he was two,” and I was like, “Oh, wait a second, there was way more to do…” (both laughing) PAM: That’s awesome! Can you tell us a bit about how your definition of learning has changed since discovering unschooling? LAUREN: Well, it’s been an evolving process since I was in that teacher training program back however many years ago. I have to do the math for it’s a long time ago. I had a pretty unschooly definition of learning when River and I started homeschooling but when we started I still was making lists of the subjects to keep track of what we were covering for my own records and peace of mind. So if we played Uno or a game with a map I checked off “math” or “geography” thinking “Ok, we covered that today.” (laughs) After a couple of months, I just dropped that stuff because when you are doing it you just start to see, “Oh my god, he is learning so much and so much more than I could ever write down.” And what really amazed me was our conversations and the depth with which we would explore questions and topics and just how much we were both learning together. I feel like I see learning in such a limitless manner now and that there are no have tos and no shoulds. It’s just choices and options. And there is no not-learning. You are always learning, it doesn’t matter: if we follow joy and try to live in a manner where we are most content, that’s going to be really fun learning. No matter what you are learning. Something I love is that it’s so not just about River learning. It’s us learning as a family. River has really been into BMX biking for the past few months and that stemmed in part because my boyfriend Aaron was really into it. He was rekindling this ion from his childhood, which I think has a lot to do with our unschooling and I really think he was excited thinking about stuff and looking into his own ions because of it. And then we have an unschooling family friend. Our whole family were good friends with them, they are wonderful. They are huge into BMX biking too. So these relationships inspired a ion in River for it and now BMX biking is a way that he connects with my boyfriend Aaron and this other unschooling family and we all go to skate parks together and we watch BMX videos on YouTube to learn new tricks and he and I go on lots of bike rides and it leads to all sorts of conversations and all sorts of different things depending where we go. It’s just amazing. Learning just keeps happening based on whatever we like. Another thing he and I are really into the musical “Hamilton” which we learned all about this summer from some people who loved it. So we bought the CDs and we started listening to it and falling in love with the music. River loves rap and he loves music. That really led him into wanting to explore past wars because there are these battle songs that are really awesome and that led us to go to a civil war re-enactment as a family. We are all learning about these different topics in our own ways and I just love being able to witness how our paths evolve from a single interest or question that one of us is exploring and then how they connect. So that whole limitless nature of learning. It just feels like it’s all about choices and following our joy. PAM: That’s it. Those are beautiful stories. LAUREN: I love that. It’s so fun! What I know now is that until we did it, I couldn’t know how beautiful it would be or how full and rich it could be. I just couldn’t know. Especially with a teaching background you might come into something thinking “Ok, we are going to learn this set list of things!” but with unschooling and with this idea of limitless learning, there are no boundaries. There is so much more to learn. I love that. PAM: I love how each of your answers is leading into the next question! But before we get there, I love your phrase “limitless learning,” because that was the huge piece for me. When we started it was all about the learning. It was, “Ok, if they are not going to school I’m going to replace the learning somehow,” But that first year of just watching them and seeing it in action … I tried to journal, tried to write things down, and I would go for maybe a week and then there was just too much to write. It expanded into life. You just see the learning in every minute. Ok, let me read the next question. So that people know what we are talking about (laughs). Did you find a difference between understanding the principles of unschooling intellectually and then living them day to day? LAUREN: When I read this question I was like, “Yes, Yes, Yes …” I wrote “Yes” five times because this was a big surprise to me. I think I said this already but since I learned about it when he was two, I did my paradigm-shifting. I got this. We are just going to become unschoolers; this is awesome. But then I realized I still have lots to unload through the process of doing it. I think for me, the biggest piece that I didn’t realize would be such a huge piece, even though I read all about it, was trust. And that trust is really essential to unschooling is, in a lot of ways, born out of the act of unschooling. So kind of like the chicken and the egg: you can’t have the trust until you trust, but you develop the trust through trusting. I just feel like trusting him in his own path; I had to live that, in order to build that. I didn’t do it before we unschooled. The amount of trust that is needed and that comes out of unschooling has just blown me away and how that connects us and how he trusts me to him in his learning about anything and everything. If he comes to me with a question, an interest, or something that he just happens to say, he trusts that I’m going to listen and respect him and him in learning more about it and finding the resources that he needs, and I trust that he will learn everything he needs to learn by following his ions and joy. I didn’t know how deeply we could trust each other and I didn’t know how connected we could become before we were unschooling. I read about it forever. That’s the way I learn. I love reading everything about a topic and then maybe I will act on it or maybe not. This was mind-blowing, the difference between actually living it versus just reading it. It was amazing. PAM: I found the same thing. I mean the relationships just blew me away. I had no idea about the depths of trust and connection that you could have with another person. I don’t think I had that kind of connection with anyone. Maybe that’s why when I ask in the Ten Questions episodes, “What is the best thing that you found when looking back on unschooling? What has been the most surprising or your favourite outcome of it?” Relationships has pretty much always been the answer because it’s just something you can’t get, you don’t understand when you get started until you develop it, right? LAUREN: And I was shocked by that. Because we are so close. I’m closer to him than anyone. I just can’t believe how much closer—worlds closer—that we became through the process of unschooling. You just can’t know until you do it. It’s mind-blowing, really. PAM: It’s true! I was wondering if you could talk a bit about what changes you have seen in River since he left school? LAUREN: Yes. He just loves his life. He loves homeschooling and unschooling and he will say to me regularly, “Mom, I love my life.” I’ve just seen him become happier and more confident and more flexible and more understanding, just a lot of changes. He will proudly tell anyone that he is homeschooled. Recently we went to a party and another kid asked: “So, did you go on any vacations this summer?” And he responded with, “Well, pretty much every day is a vacation for me.” He really feels like, “My life is so fun.” One of the most interesting shifts that I have seen is that he has grown so much socially since we started homeschooling. I love it, I think that’s funny that so many people question about socialization. He gets along so much better with other kids now, which has not always been the easiest thing for him. I just feel like he has become more empathetic and understanding and I think that has a lot to do with all the unstructured play he gets to have with other homeschooled friends as well as friends in our apartment complex. He has so much time to just be with kids in an unstructured manner where no one is saying: “time to do this,” or “you guys need to interact in this way,” or even just someone micromanaging their conversations. He is playing in these unstructured settings, with me there to as needed of course, but I’ve seen so much growth in those ways. Another big thing I wanted to mention was the reading. He started reading half way through the year while simultaneously avoiding all books because of his negative school experience. When we first started unschooling, if we weren’t out connecting with friends and we were home, he mostly spent his time playing video games or watching YouTube. He just loved it. He really started learning how to read by doing stuff online that he really liked. He started reading probably six months into our unschooling journey and he would read signs in a drive-through, or read comments on YouTube, or read directions to a video game. He would type in words if he was looking for information, read the words on a YouTube lyric video song he liked. He really is into music. He would even have me pause it so he could read the whole thing and I him reading something with the word “champagne” in it and I was like, “Holy crap, he just read “champagne”.” (laughs) And I feel like this experience of him reading on his own without any of me besides, you know, I’m with him and I’m reading things when he asks me to, or typing in something for him on games, but without having someone sitting down with him and teaching him how to do it. I think this was super empowering for him after his school experience. And after that he started to go back to the library with me and he would read books to his friends at the library or at his cousin’s house and it’s just like he reclaimed it for himself and to me that’s so healing and so wonderful because that was my biggest concern that this bad experience would sit with him for life. I feel like that has been a major change over the past year. I don’t care that he can read or not. He is nine and he can take forever, I don’t care. But what I care about is that he owns it. And I really think he knows that: “Wow I did this on my own.” And I love that. PAM: I think that’s a great point: owning the experience. Giving it back to them, to whatever timetable they end up having. But for it to be back in their court so that they have choices and control over it. That’s awesome! What has been the hardest part of your unschooling journey so far? LAUREN: This question I thought was so hard because I feel like we haven’t had a lot of hardships with unschooling. Sometimes life can feel hard, but that’s not because of unschooling. We went from a lifestyle where River was in school for six hours and I was working out of the home for nine hours and then we come back home together at the end of the day and it was like we only had the worst of ourselves to give to each other. We were both grumpy and exhausted. So going from that to a lifestyle where he is home so much more and I am home so much more and we are together so much more and there is no pressure to do stuff he doesn’t want to do and I’m working at a job that I love and we are both really fulfilled and happy. I feel like it’s only made everything better and easier and more wonderful. I think sometimes parenting can feel really hard, and living as a member of a family can feel hard, but unschooling actually makes all of it easier and better. So I didn’t have a good answer. PAM: No, that’s a great answer! It’s great to hear your perspective. LAUREN: It hasn’t been hard. It’s been awesome! PAM: It’s been awesome! (both laugh) We might have touched on this, but was has surprised you most about your journey so far? LAUREN: For me especially, I come from that teaching background, and the biggest surprise for me about unschooling has been that unschooling is not really about learning. It’s not about education, and I mean that in a respectful way. I don’t mean to belittle the learning that River is doing and that I’m doing with our lives—we are learning so much more than I ever imagined we would learn—but it feels totally secondary: like a benefit that occurs along the way. To me unschooling is about living and about joy and about our relationships like you said before and that has been the biggest surprise for me. When I was coming into it, I thought, “Oh this is how we are going to learn the things he needs to learn, just like he would have at school.” But instead, it’s “No, this is just our life and this is how we enjoy living.” I was in a Facebook conversation with Anne Ohman and she wrote in a comment: “The Learning is a by-product of the Living.” And I was like “Yes, that’s exactly it!” Just by living these wonderful, exciting lives—and you know we have our own issues and struggles at times, but living through all of life—we are learning so much. But that’s just a piece of it. It’s so beautiful and it’s so wonderful and it’s so rich and it’s so much about just us celebrating being together and our lives together and what we love. It’s about so much more than learning. That was a surprise to me. PAM: Yeah, first we think of learning as the lowest common denominator. That’s why we go to school. For the learning, it’s for the learning. Yet once we start living it and seeing it in the wild, maybe you see there is actually more. There are roots to learning. There is a foundation of living and relationships and connecting and trust and everything that lies in the foundation beneath the learning. So instead of focusing on the learning, when we focus on creating that strong foundation, the learning is the by-product that just kind of bubbles up out of it. LAUREN: It is so beautiful and I would never diminish the importance of that learning but it’s, like you said, the relationships. I’m just in awe of how close we are. It’s something I take for granted now, almost, how close we are. But it’s the by-product of unschooling and living this life. It’s so awesome! It’s so much more awesomer than I thought, and I already thought it would be awesome. (both laugh) PAM: It’s awesomER! LAUREN: It’s awesomer than I thought it would be, which is so great! PAM: Oh, that’s awesome. I want to thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me, Lauren. That was so much fun! LAUREN: I know! Thank you so much, Pam. Like I said I’m a throw-myself-in type of person and unschooling has been one of my big, huge ions, so it’s so fun to talk about it and to think about it and to explore it, because I won’t do that with River because it’s not really his big ion, so it’s so nice to talk to other people who are into it. PAM: I know, that’s exactly it. You mentioned that earlier too. I didn’t use the word unschooling with my kids for a few years. I think when we went to the first conference it had unschooling in the name. Yeah, we are just not going to school, we are homeschooling, that’s that. They figured it out. They figure out life and living and just pursue it and we are the ones who do all the work, seeing how learning can really happen in everyday living. Before we go, where is the best place for people to connect with you online? LAUREN: Probably on Facebook, my name is Lauren Seaver. I love Facebook and I’m always putting fun stuff up there what we are doing. PAM: Yeah, and they can send you a quick message saying they heard you on the podcast if they’d like to connect, right? LAUREN: Yeah, absolutely. PAM: Thank you so much again, and have a great day! LAUREN: Oh, thank you so much, Pam. You have a wonderful day!

For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the first Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Priorities. We are handed a set of priorities by society and our culture, but when we really consider ourselves and our personal values, we can see how individual our priorities can be! When we choose priorities that feel good to us, it becomes easier to make day-to-day choices that align with what is important to us. We talk about how our relationships fit into our priorities (and—spoiler alert—they’re at the top of our lists!) and how prioritizing connection has become a focus for both of us as we tuned out the external noise and tuned into how we want to show up in the world. We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships! THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more! We invite you to us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation! Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling? Listen to our conversation on YouTube. Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram. Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling. EPISODE QUESTIONS How can you quiet the outside noise so you can hear your own thoughts? Your inner voice? What priorities make sense to you? Why? Where do your relationships fall in your list of priorities? Are your day to day actions lining up with your priorities? What changes, if any, would you make? Do any of your priorities depend on other people’s actions and choices? If so, is there a way you could tweak them so that they focus on what you can control? TRANSCRIPT ANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are so excited you found us and look forward to exploring our relationships, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world. So, on today’s episode, we’re going to talk about priorities. And I love this as a starting place for the podcast, because it’s such an interesting topic to examine. Priorities are so individual, and yet, so often, we’re handed a set of priorities from society. We’re handed definitions of success and where and how we should be spending our time. And there are these heavy guardrails of judgment that we have to move through if we choose to deviate from these expected paths. So, it can be really interesting, I’ve found, to dig into those outside voices, that judgment. What’s behind it? What purpose does it serve? And is it helping me get in touch with who I am and who I want to be in the world? I think about the studies that they do when people are on their deathbed and they’re asked, is there anything that you would change? And consistently, they answer that they wished they had prioritized their relationships over achievements or the next promotion. For me personally, I came to that realization for myself after our first child had a life-threatening after birth experience. Almost losing her really woke me up to the path I was on and to look at how I wanted to spend my time. And the answer for me was doing things I love with the people that I love. And that’s how I want to spend this time that I’m given. And understanding that has just been a huge guide for me ever since. So, I’m curious, Pam, what’s it been like for you? PAM: Well, it was having children that sparked my journey, as well. I found that those first few years were just filled with questions like who I wanted to be as a person and parent. And, having internalized so many of society’s goals and stories growing up, it took me a while, quite a while, to realize just how much choice I actually had. I didn’t need to just dutifully take on the path and the priorities that were handed to me. I could figure out what I value and make those things a priority in my. And then, as I continued to ask more questions, I came to realize what would always be in my life, and it was my relationships. Jobs, hobbies, areas of interest, while definitely being integral parts of who I am, those would come and go over the years. They had been coming and going over the years. But my relationships with my family would always be in my life. They were and are a fundamental part of just my being in the world. And so, since that aha moment, I have chosen to prioritize my relationships. And rather surprisingly, because you think I’m focusing on something, so I’m closing things down to this one thing, but I found that my life has been so much richer for it. ANNA: Oh, my gosh. So much richer. I feel like when we have that foundation of strong, connected relationships, it’s just this really wonderful place from which we can explore the world and learn about ourselves. Because I think that might have been the most surprising piece for me, that as I focused on being in relationship with others, I learned so much about myself. It’s not always easy, but I’m grateful for it. And so, as I’m thinking about this, we both got to this place where we didn’t want to be taking these priorities that were being handed to us. The next bit for me was realizing that others don’t want me to define their priorities either. So, when we think about our partners or kids, it was really helpful to think, am I judging how they spend their time, the choices that they’re making? Because that judgment comes between us. We don’t learn why they’re making the choices they’re making. We miss the opportunity to really connect with them and who they are. It’s got this cloud of expectation and you’ll have some people that will buck against that expectation in really dramatic fashion. And then you’ll have others that really try to meet it, even if it’s not in alignment for them. But, either way, the connection is harmed and can be lost together. So, I try not to be the outside voice that someone needs to shut out, but instead be someone who celebrates and just unconditionally s the people in my life. PAM: Absolutely. That was definitely yet another layer to peel back for me, realizing how valuable it was for me to contemplate and choose my priorities, but that didn’t mean my priorities were the best priorities for anyone else. It makes so much sense to me why my priorities are these and in this order, but no, everyone is a different person. And I the huge shift in my relationship with my spouse when I stopped trying to convince him that my priorities should be his priorities as well, which had looked like me trying to tell him what to do and when. And I was definitely nice about it. I wasn’t trying to bully him or anything, but as I thought about it, I was trying to convince him that I was right and vice versa. That’s where our conversations went. They were often about convincing each other that our priorities and choices were more right than the other person’s. There was definitely a winner and a loser. But once I began to share my priorities without trying to convince him to adopt them, oh, my gosh. There was space for him to start sharing his without me judging them. Each of us was more able to be ourselves. We could just share and see how things landed. And then, that in turn helped us learn more about each other as we’d chat about the things that are important to us and why. And recognizing that his priorities are as important to him as mine are to me.  ANNA: It’s so true. I don’t know. We get stuck in our head, right? We get stuck in our head thinking everybody’s seeing things the same way. And so, yeah, I just love that next layer. And I think then, I want to talk about, too, as we hone in on these priorities, it’s such a helpful lens to look at the day to day moments. So, in each moment, we have this opportunity to make choices. And understanding my priorities and then keeping them front of mind as I made choices throughout the day was critical to me, actually honoring them as priorities, versus just giving lip service to, “My relationships are important,” or whatever the thing might be. So, what that would look like for me, it might be stopping what I’m doing to hear my child excitedly tell me about their game. It’s taking a walk after dinner with David to reconnect, because we’ve had some time apart that day. Because, truthfully, I could curl up with a book and get some work done at the computer, but I do want to tend to that relationship, that priority first. And what I found is that that connection serves us both as we move through the evening and through the subsequent days. And another really big one for me, this was so huge, was learning to say no to outside requests that took me away from the people that I loved. And here’s the thing. Sometimes there are easy yeses and they feed me and they feel great and they feel great to those around me. But other times, what I noticed is that I was saying yes without really thinking about how it would impact me, my energy, what I would have left to give my family, the time it might take away from spending time with the important people in my life, all of those things. I’m just seeing the person in front of me with the ask and saying, “Okay, I’ll help,” without really checking in. And using that lens really helped me realize that the time with them was what I wanted to prioritize, and so, I really needed to align my actions with that. So, that becomes the work, aligning our actions with what matters most to us. PAM: Exactly. Yet another huge layer is, okay, I’ve got these priorities. It’s not sticking them on a post-it note and sticking them somewhere where I’ll see them. It’s, how do these weave into my days, my actual days? What do they look like in action? And I wanted to mention, it is not about trying to guilt ourselves into making choices that align with our priorities. If we find ourselves doing that regularly, I think that might be a great clue just to revisit our priorities. Apparently, the things that I want to do in my day don’t align with what I thought my priorities were. ANNA: That’s so interesting. PAM: So, just revisit them. What you really choose to do in the moment, you want to do in the moment, those outer voices, right? Am I doing it, because I think I should? Or is this something that feels good, that I want to choose, that I choose to do, that I want to do? And you want the things that you choose to do to align with your priorities, as well. They weave together so much. That said, though, it doesn’t mean that the choices are always easy. Like you were talking about, they aren’t often between a good thing and a bad thing, making the choice easy like, “Oh yeah, between this and this? No, no. This is definitely it.” Often, it’s between two or three lovely things, but that’s where knowing our priorities can be so helpful. So, using your example, which I love, maybe after dinner I could take a walk with Rocco to reconnect, or I could clean up the kitchen a bit, maybe because it feels nice to me to walk into a tidy kitchen, or I could relax and read a bit. When I think about those choices, the first thing I might realize is that, those aren’t actually either/or things, right? I could do them all over the course of the evening. And taking a moment to consider my priorities helps me put them in an order that aligns with them. So, maybe I have also learned that once I sit down to relax and read or watch a show, I often feel too tired for a walk after. So, there are a couple of solid reasons to tend to the relationship first for me. So, maybe our walk turns into us tidying the kitchen together as we finish up our conversation. And then we can each go to our own thing feeling refreshed and connected. There are so many ways that things can unfold. And keeping our priorities in mind helps us choose the path that feels more fulfilling to us. ANNA: Oh, my gosh, yes. And I think that’s such a great point about, if you’re feeling a rub during your day about, I want to do this, but it’s not aligning with these priorities I’ve set out, if you’re seeing that as a to-do list or a checklist and it’s not feeling good, woo, stop! Just stop right there. And revisit and go, “Wait a minute, are my priorities really lining up with who I want to be right now in this moment?” And the thing is, they can change. Our priorities can change and they will as we go through different seasons of our lives, as we, grow and change and learn more things about ourselves. So, just looking for those little rub spots, I think, is important. PAM: Speaking of those rubs, sometimes there are emergencies. There are urgent things in life that come up and I may absolutely choose to do those things. And I may choose to step far out of my comfort zone and do some things, but it’s the act of recognizing, oh yeah, this needs my attention immediately, very, very soon. I am going to do that. Priorities, again, it’s not a rule. ANNA: No. Or a checklist. PAM: Choice is right there. But priorities, there’s something that can help us make choices that, again, they feel fulfilling. They feel right. They feel good to us. They help us when we come to a point where there are various possibilities for the next moment. So, I just think they are so valuable for us to recognize, because sometimes, too, our priorities may look quite mundane. Like relationships. “I see these people every day! Of course I’m in relationship with them. They live down the hall, they sleep down the hall.” So, it can feel like, why is it even worth making that a priority? But that’s the fun part. That’s why it’s so valuable to think about it, to think about the kind of person that I want to be, the kind of parent I want to be, the kind of partner I want to be. And when we’re thinking about it, we’ve got it top of mind as we go through our day. As things come up, as things unfold in front of us, we can make the choices that feel better for us, so that at the end of the day, it often feels just more fulfilling really. ANNA: Right. And grounded, for me, because again, I think it’s interesting. I think they inform each other. The choice informs the priority. The priorities inform the choice. And so, just that awareness, like you said, top of mind, bringing that awareness, that can really help us. It’s a grounded feeling of like, I’m living the life that I want to live. I am being the person that I want to be and those are the things that I like to check in with myself about periodically. So, yeah, I love that. Okay, so, we are going to leave you with some questions to ponder this week. The first one is, how can you quiet the outside noise so you can hear your own thoughts, your inner voice? And so, this will be a big one, just thinking about, where are those voices coming from? What does it sound like for you? What does your voice sound like in contrast? So, just give a little time to sit with that and how you can shut those noises out. The next one is, what priorities make sense to you and why? Because, like we said, it’s going to be different. There’s going to be seasons. There’s going to be things that shift around based on where you are in your life and what’s happening. But, “Do they make sense to you?” is going give you a big clue as to, “Are they coming from outside voices versus, is it something that’s really bubbling up from inside of you? Where do your relationships fall in your list of priorities? And I think it’s just, again, it’s the mundane in some ways, like Pam was saying. And so, maybe sometimes relationships fall off as we’re thinking, “Oh, we’ve got this career thing we want to do,” or whatever, which are all wonderful things. There’s no good or bad here about what you’re pursuing or doing, but it’s just that check in. Where are they falling and is that where I want them? So, I think that’s just important to look at. Next one is, are your day-to-day actions lining up with your priorities? What changes, if any, would you make? And that’s what we’re talking about, is you’re looking at the different choices you’re making throughout the day. Does it line up with your priorities? And again, keep in mind that it could be that the priorities need to change, or maybe you want to check in about your priorities as you’re making your choices. So, those, again, work together. Do any of your priorities depend on other people’s actions and choices? And, if so, is there a way you could tweak them so that they focus on what you can control? And this goes back to what we were saying about nobody else wanting us to put our priorities on them. It’s that same kind of thing, because it’s like, if we are expecting someone else to move along with our priorities, it’s pretty much a recipe for upset or disconnection, because they’re going to have their own path there. So, really tuning into, are my priorities in alignment with me and things that I can control? And, for me, what that looks like a lot of times is, am I being the person I want to be? So, my priority may be about a relationship that does involve somebody else, but what I control is how I show up for the relationship. PAM: Exactly. Yeah. We don’t have control of how other people show up, but we can also be a wonderful model, as in, this is how we choose. ANNA: Absolutely. So, check out the show notes for things we’ve mentioned in the episode, the episode transcript, and today’s questions. We’d love to hear what you discover. You can share your thoughts on a comment on the website or our episode post on Instagram @LivingJoyfullyPodcast. You’ll find that link in the show notes as well. Thank you so much for being here with us, and we’ll see you next time.

In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about revitalizing our nests. Our homes are such an important part of our unschooling lives. We can get open and curious and creatively find ways to make the spaces in our home fit the individual people in our family. After all, people are different! We share examples from our own lives as well as offer food for thought as you reimagine your own home with your unique family in mind. We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships! THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more! We invite you to us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation! Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling? Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram. Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling. So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ERIKA: Hello, everyone! I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully, and I’m ed by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia. Hello to you both. And today we’re going to be talking about revitalizing our nest, which was a very fun topic of conversation on the Network a while back. I’m really excited to dive into that. But first, I wanted to encourage you to check out the Living Joyfully Shop where you can find Pam’s books and unschooling courses such as Validation, Navigating Conflict, and Four Pillars of Unschooling, a variety of coaching options, as well as information about ing the Living Joyfully Network. The shop has resources and for every stage of your journey. You can find the link in the show notes, or you can visit livingjoyfullyshop.com. And now, Pam, would you like to get us started with our conversation?  PAM: Yes, yes, yes, I would. I love the lens of revitalizing our nest and maybe even more for those of us who are right now in the depth of winter. We are at -19 Celsius right now. So, we may be cocooning a bit more inside our nest during this season. As I was thinking about it, one of the biggest shifts for me around this idea was actually realizing that the focus of this nesting wasn’t to make our home into my version of perfect, but that what I actually wanted to do was make our nest inviting and enjoyable for each person in our family. And all together now, everyone, people are different. So what makes a room inviting for one person may truly be overwhelming to another. It’s not really about making every room work for everyone, but making different spaces that have maybe different atmospheres and different functions. So overall, everyone has a handful of spaces that they love to be in and do the things that they love to do.  And as I was thinking about it, one of the memories that jumped out at me was just ing how freeing and exciting it was when I first realized that what was called the dining room didn’t need to actually have a fancy dining table and chairs. When my kids were younger, I had that revelation and it became the computer room. It had two desks, two computers, and a comfy couch. It actually became a hub of our home rather than the ghost town space it was before. The whole world really did open up allowing us to really make our home our nest. Rather than feeling weighed down by the obligation to make it look a certain way or that I had to take those messages or that when people came to visit, I needed to be able to show these various spaces off for that. Actually, we’re the ones living in it. What do we want it to be? And once that question and that kind of permission opened up to just make it the way we wanted it to be, oh my gosh. It has been fun ever since. ANNA: That was definitely something I wanted to talk about too, because I think, again, we have these kinds of conventional ideas of what the spaces are used for. But wow. When you can throw that out, it really helps because, we had, I don’t even know if it’s called this everywhere, but a formal living room. When you first come into the house, it’s this kind of small room to the side. I don’t know, in the old days, I guess you would entertain people there, but we made that the playroom, we called it the front room. It was right when you walked in the house, so everybody saw it and it was often covered with toys. It was so interesting because there was a part of me that was like, Ugh. And then really overwhelmingly the response was, what a cool room, or look at how you’re using that space, or oh my gosh, you can tell they have fun in there, you know? I think it opened up for other people that we can just look at the space and really make it our own. And I think to that end, I like that idea of destinations and so even if you have a smaller space, it can be a nook in a room or a nook in a hall that you could create and throw a beanbag down or something else, like little spots that, depending on what that person needs you have a space. Do they need quiet? Do they need stimulation? Do they need the TV? Do they need it to be dark? Really thinking about how you use the space, how your days flow, what the different people like and enjoy doing. I think it can be so valuable because we’re all so different. We do want this space to serve all of us. And, like you said, we can’t make every room fit every person, but thinking along the lines of, we have a blank canvas of whatever the entire house is, what can we do? We co-slept for a very long time, so it was kind of a sleeping room and then we could utilize the other bedrooms that didn’t have beds for a period of time as more, play areas and places to store stuff. And so it was just really interesting to open all of that up and think what do we need? What do the four of us need in this space to do, because we’re here all the time. Not all the time, we’re out about, but you know what I mean. We were there every day. And like you said, the visitor that comes periodically, once every few months is not the person I need to be catering to. ERIKA: I’ve seen the same thing happen. In our house, we have a relatively small space for the four of us. And so, over time it’s taken creativity and just thinking outside the box. How do we make this work for what we need right now? And we had the same thing, where in the beginning when we were co-sleeping. One bedroom was perfect because then we had only one room that had all that bed space taking up the whole room. That was so great because then I had another room that we called the toy room and that was just for playing with toys and then another room that was an office. In the beginning, it had the TV and everything was in there too. And so, if someone, a stranger were to come into our house, it’s like, what is this? But for us, it made so much sense, especially in those young days. Then I a few years ago, I guess it’s more than a few at this point, when we just needed more space, the kids were getting bigger. We changed our bedroom to the master bedroom. So then it’s the bigger room for sleeping, smaller room for the office. But they still weren’t ready to sleep in their own rooms yet, so I’m like, why? We don’t need to waste that space on beds if they’re not going to be used. So, we just put more beds together in the big room and still had space for the toy room and the office. And then now at this point, when they really do want their own room, we transformed those two rooms into their own bedrooms. And we have our bedroom, which now functions as an office as well. And so, it really was all these really major shifts that took a lot of creativity and thinking and planning. But I think one of the things to realize about this kind of thinking about our homes is you are not going to be able to find a solution that will last forever because everyone’s always growing and changing, including us as adults, what we’re interested in doing, what kind of phase we’re in, what kind of spaces we need. And so, just thinking of it in a really open way. I think it can be really fun. I don’t have to solve every problem for the rest of our lives with my planning, but what would really help us right now, to have what we need to be comfortable, One big thing that I’ve always liked since we had kids was to not have a coffee table in front of the couch, which most houses you go into have the coffee table in front of the couch. But for me, having the open floor where kids would just run out and crash on the floor, lay out all their toys on the floor. Having that big floor space was so valuable. And so we still have a table, but it’s to the side. We can pull it in as needed. But just little things like that. When you’re seeing and thinking about, how does my family actually use the house? What makes it more kid friendly or functional? That’s not even to mention all of our different ways of being. Who likes things more organized, who likes to see everything out? And so just kind of taking all of our individual personalities into and the stages that we’re in, if it’s the little kids who want all that open space to run, that’s a different phase than the kid who wants the table to be working on Legos all day. PAM: Yes. The Lego table! That definitely had a season. I built it and put edges on it. So that the Lego wouldn’t fall. And I think what I love ing the revitalizing our nest lens is just what you were talking about, Erika. It’s not that, we’re going to revitalize and then boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Figure it out, plan it out, do it. It’s more about noticing, are there things that somebody’s getting out and needing to set up regularly? Is there a way we can make, uh, I love the destination idea, Anna. Like make a destination for them so it’s super easy for them to slide in and slide out of an activity. And that it’s all ages. It’s the same for adults. If we have a little something that brings us joy, that’s a little touch of self care. Like let’s make a little destination or a little spot where it’s easier for us to slide into, especially when the kids are younger and we can only catch a few minutes here, a few minutes there, maybe easily interrupted, et cetera. So that just makes it easier for us as well. That is something, I love the point that it’s not something that ends either. I still love revitalizing little spaces. My room right here has kind of been my office, I prefer to call it my studio, but now two kitties have entered our lives and now it’s also the kitten home. Things are always migrating and changing. People are coming, people are staying, people are going. It’s such a helpful lens to just keep at the back of my mind, just to keep our space working for us. Just to notice, oh, like this is feeling a little stagnant. This space isn’t feeling inviting anymore. Nobody’s been to this little destination corner in a while. Nobody’s interested in that anymore. What else could we make it? How could we transform that to be a little bit more inviting?  So many pieces to consider, not only personalities but we can think of creating an atmosphere. Lighting and sound is something that we consider very often when we’re trying to cultivate a welcoming space for someone. I’ve got a little speaker right here. That I can just put some background noise on, or maybe a little bit of music, whatever works for the person. Where do you want to sink into and how can we help do that? It helps us learn a little bit more about each other, how we grow and change. Ah, that’s not so interesting anymore. Let’s try this. The lighting is the same. Even smells. Oh, I don’t have it. I had a little essential oil very nearby yesterday. I was like, oh, that is so nice. Sniff, sniff. All those pieces are part of revitalizing our nest, considering ourselves and every member of the family so that they too have spaces that feel welcoming, that feel like they were made for them, that fit them like a glove for whatever particular activity that they’re interested in doing in the moment. That make sense?  ANNA: Yeah, for sure. And I think it’s interesting because a couple things are coming to mind, so I’ll see if I can keep track of them.  That creativity right, of what’s happening, what do we need? But the little niceties, let’s get a new fluffy blanket. Let’s do things that just kind of make the space pop or fun. And when you were talking, it reminded me of a very old thread on the network called Paints Out. Where we talked about having things accessible. And what reminded me was when you said as adults too, what’s our season and what’s happening for us? And I just , I played the guitar at the time, having the guitar out in a stand that I could just easily pick it up.  And then having a spot where when they were in an art phase, it was super easy to clean, easy to get out, it kind of had its own space. And then like you said, we might notice, you know what, that’s kind of languishing. We don’t have to throw the paints out, but maybe we utilize that space as something else. Maybe we’re doing a little bit more with games or it’s a puzzle table or it ends up turning into something else. And so keeping an eye on that. I always found that kind of fun. Because I do like the organizational project and so. It was fun to think about what we are into now. And like you said, it’s such a connecting activity because we’re really looking at them. We’re really in tune with how their day is flowing and what’s happening for them and for ourselves. What do I like to do? Oh, I like to have some kind of peaceful, neat space where I can have my Rasa in the morning or when I’m checking emails. So then, okay, what? How can I create that for myself? And then what do they do when they get up and what does that look like? I think that’s really fun to think about because sometimes when we’re trying to keep everything neat or organized, it’s all put away and it’s kind of out of sight out of mind. So it was fun to find creative ways that met my need for some order, and for accessibility. I think that can be a lot of fun. And, also just to take the destination piece. Outside, if you happen to have any kind of outside space, whether it’s small or large, it was fun for us to think about, oh, a sandbox or a water table. We lived in a more temperate climate, so we could be outside a lot of the year. And so, having those little destinations again made it easy to move towards something. I found with younger kids being outside helped us if things were getting a little dicey inside. And having those destinations to move us towards something, was so helpful. And so I like that idea of we have things to move towards, whether it’s inside the house or out of the house. That helps us transition. If we’re having a little funky stuff and people are getting grumpy and maybe we need a snack, let’s all go do this. And we have that space that’s kind of carved out for us to have snacks or eat popsicles or whatever. I think it can be a really fun activity, a connecting activity to figure out how we wanna use the space that we have. ERIKA: Yeah, I had actually written down “paints out” too. That’s funny that we both thought of it. So, this conversation on the network about paints out was so great because it started with the idea of this little toddler having her easel, paper and paints just ready all the time and the mom was noticing how much more painting was happening and then the question became, what are we doing as adults to have our activities ready to go?  I really do love that and it’s something else to think about for each member of the family. What are the things that you have to just keep taking out again and again and is there a way to make it more accessible? Are there things that you know that your kids are loving to do but they don’t think of it because everything’s always put away. Being creative and brainstorming about how to have those things be more accessible.  And then I was thinking, as far as the organization goes, with our small space, I always wanted to have things have a place to go so it felt like we could clean it up and it will be organized and we’ll know where to find everything. And so we used a lot of these medium-sized plastic bins that are clear, that have locking lids on them and we put labels on them. And so it made cleaning up toys really easy. But it also meant that when the kids are looking at their shelves, they see their things. And that helps them with the inspiration of, what do I want to play with today? It was easy for them too. They’re not huge bins, so they could just take things in and out. We used those for almost everything. And then some of  the bigger toys were in fabric bins. And so, just thinking about what are the things that you would like for your kids to have easy access to, putting kid dishes on a low open shelf. The things where they keep asking to get to them. If you have the kid dishes up in a cabinet, then every time they want water, they’re having to ask for help. That would be one little clue. Maybe I can make this easier on everyone by having it more accessible at a place that they could reach. Putting their snacks at a low level, things like that. Noticing if there are things I keep reaching for when I’m doing something. If I’m doing my crafting at the living room coffee table, and every time I need scissors, I have to go over to my office to grab the scissors and bring them back out. Okay, maybe I need scissors to be in this station. So it’s just little things like that, noticing what are those things that I have to keep going to get or that the kids keep asking me to get this thing. Those might be the little places to try to get creative. I was thinking also in our living room, since I do like that open floor, we’ve really liked having a folding table that we can take out for things like games and puzzles and Lego and stuff, that we could put it away when we’re done and still have that space. But have table space when we need it. So just little hacks like that. PAM: Yes. I love looking for clues as in, what do I keep getting asked for? If you’re someone who loves organization and efficiency, you can use that lens as part of figuring out how it might be helpful to revitalize your nest because when our kids have that ability to reach things and get things and do the things, that gives them a sense of agency and control over their days that they’re not always being stopped and having to go ask for this and that. I think that is just a super helpful lens when you’re looking at things. And then the scissors thing, that is something I’ve been hearing lately and kind of considering, maybe I want two or three of certain things to be in those spots where I need them. Because I am easily distracted and if I have to go to another room to get scissors, chances are it’ll be 30 minutes before I get back to where I started and I will not have the scissors. And I’ll go, that’s why I got up! That was it. Scissors. I’m back on track now. So, yes, I find that just so fun, to use those lenses to look at our days and to see how we can set up our days to flow, because that is just more fun. And when we can stay in our flow of what we’re doing. That’s super fun too. ANNA: It’s funny with things like scissors though, because they’re not that expensive and yet we’re thinking, oh, do we really need more. Yes, get scissors or things that you notice you’re using a lot. Get the extra pens, get the extra set of whatever if you can, because a lot of times we’re just not thinking how disruptive it is to go get things. And especially if you have somebody that gets distracted. Who knows what’s going to happen by the time they get back. I love the snack example too. I during another thread on the network, we had some really cool pictures of people’s spaces and how they did snacks and specific snack areas and how it solved problems like, opening the refrigerator and felt like it was open too long and not knowing what things were for dinner or whatever, but having specific areas and specific bins and just made it so accessible and easy.  And just think of the areas that rub, I feel like in the last few pod podcasts we talked about, looking at where does it rub? And then okay, what’s happening there? Where’s the rub coming from and is there a solution that might make that easier? Even if it’s outside the box, even if it’s adding an extra little fridge somewhere or something that you might not think of normally. So I really love that. And another thing I wanted to bring to mind is the idea of preferences, because we all have preferences, right? We talked about how we’re all different, and these preferences,  maybe for clean spaces or a clean countertop, or maybe it’s to have everything out. I think sometimes so much of what we talk about with people are different is just don’t take someone else’s personality personally.  Because that’s where we go awry. And when we can recognize that those preferences are often rooted in what actually soothes us, what works for our brain, what makes sense for us to stay regulated, then we’re not judging that they want it differently than we do. We’re actually able to have a conversation about, okay, you like to see everything out. I need a clean table that calms my brain when I see that surface. What can we do? Then we get creative to meet everybody’s needs. And again, every particular space in a house may not meet everybody’s needs. But for me, if I had a spot that I could keep organized, if I was starting to feel dysregulated, I could move to that space and have all my calming tools there. And they had their space to play and do, even if it was right next to me, it was still okay. So, it’s not even about a massive amount of space, it’s more just about recognizing that each of those preferences and desires are valid and that it’s important to understand because it’s part of how we understand our brain. How we want to move through the world and what works for us.  And I think if we have spaces that end up creating dysregulation, we may not even realize that that’s what the problem is. We just think, we’re having behavior problems, or we’re just not getting along. Or there’s so much fighting. But maybe there’s actually some root causes and we can figure out about what helps us feel good in the space.  I just wanted to bring that piece. And whether we’re dealing with neurodiversity or neurotypical, I think we all have preferences and we all have different brains that need different things. ERIKA: Yeah, and like you both were saying earlier, it’s just such a good opportunity to learn more about ourselves and to learn more about our family . And I feel like once you bring them in on these kinds of conversations about how different things feel to them, you just can learn so much about the differences of each person. I commenting or noticing with the kids, it feels like when the living room’s just this open canvas that you get a burst of inspiration and come up with all kinds of ideas of things to play. And so when I would notice that everything’s getting a little messy and crowded and kids seem to not really know what to do, I could suggest, should we just clean everything up? And then maybe you’ll have that feeling of a new idea of what I could bring into this space. But then, realizing that for me, it might feel better to have everything behind a cabinet door, but if the kids aren’t seeing their things and then not getting inspired to play with their toys, they’re missing out on so much fun and all of their interests by me trying to tuck everything away. And so that’s why it was important to keep that balance between, we can put it away, but I want you to still be able to see what you have. It also reminded me of when they were little, I heard the advice about putting some things in storage and giving them one type of thing at a time.. But then I realized that my kids love combining all the things. I would’ve missed out on so much creativity if I was giving them a limited set of things to pull from. And so for me, it was worth it to have more to clean up for them to be able to combine the cars with the animals, with the characters. Maya loved packing up all the toys in bags, mixing them all together.  Each bag will have one of everything, which is just so hard to put everything back away, but so fun for her in that moment and so, realizing even now she says, the more things in my field of view the better. I just love having an abundance of stuff. And so even adults, some adults are maximalist and some adults are minimalists. And learning those differences has been really fun.  PAM: Yeah. And everything in between. But that brought back some memories. Erika, I love that, that clean canvas piece. I do sometimes when they had a big play area and we had the cupboard under the stairs that we had put shelves in and sorted in smaller bins, the different kinds of toys and things. That was one of the things that they loved. They loved mixing all the things and all the excitement when I said, Hey, you know, after you guys go to bed tonight, do you want me to just clean up and reorganize downstairs and it’ll be nice and fresh in the morning? And they’d say, sure. Oh my gosh. They were just so excited in the morning to come down. And that was a big piece. Reorganizing the things into their bins because now they knew where to find that car or that character. But things were now sorted and easier to find rather than trying to look through the whole room and seeing where the last time they had put it into a scene or something. That was also a very fun gift for them and helping them clean and organize their rooms and just seeing how they want to put all this stuff together, or maybe they want their collection of this out so they can see all of the pieces. It’s creativity, learning about each other. There is really no downside to using this lens of creating a nest. Cultivating a nest that works for the people in the family, right?  ANNA: I love it. ERIKA: Yeah, so this has been a lot of fun. I just love this topic and we hope you enjoyed our conversation as well and maybe had an aha moment or picked up some ideas to consider on your own unschooling journey. And if you enjoy these kinds of conversations, I think you would love the Living Joyfully Network. It is such an amazing group of people connecting and having thoughtful conversations about all the things we encounter in our unschooling lives. You can learn more at living joyfully.ca/network or on living joyfully shop.com, and we all hope to meet you there. So thanks for listening and we will see you next time. Bye!

We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and we’re talking about personal hygiene. Questions and concerns about hygiene come up regularly in parenting circles and, in unschooling communities, this topic can sometimes trigger fear. We wanted to dive into personal hygiene to address some of the most common areas that parents mention and talk about how we can move through challenges or fears while still staying connected to our kids. This was a really fun conversation and we hope you find it helpful on your unschooling journey! THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, coaching, and more! The Living Joyfully Network Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram. Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling. Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling? We invite you to us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about ing our children’s autonomy. Come and be part of the conversation! So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT PAM: Hello! I am Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully, and today I’m ed by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. Hello to you both.  Today we are diving into another unschooling stumbling block, personal hygiene, and I think this will be a fun one to discuss. But before we dive in, we want to invite you to us in the Living Joyfully Network. There is so much value in doing this deep, personal work that the unschooling journey asks of us in community, because while everyone’s journey is absolutely unique, we all face similar obstacles and challenges. For example, like navigating personal hygiene with our kids, and that is where the power of community shines. So to learn more and us, just follow the link in the show notes or go to living joyfully shop.com and click on community in the menu. And now, Anna, would you like to get us started?  ANNA: I would. So, this is one of those topics that comes up all the time. And I’m guessing it happens because it is kind of layered, right? And we have all of these outside voices at play, and I think we can also come into it, into parenting, into these beliefs with some preconceived notions about what is appropriate personal hygiene, what it is supposed to look like. But not surprisingly, I am going to say that people are different. And what’s really cool about that related to this topic that we’re talking about, personal hygiene, is that you can find validation for just about any choice that you make out there, because we have the bathe everyday people. We have the bathe once a week people, we have people who wash their hair every time and others who don’t, and some that don’t ever use shampoo on their hair. And then thinking about how it plays out differently in different cultures and around the world, I think that allows us to shut out the outside noise and tune into the person in front of us to actually find something that works and feels good to them and to us. Because I feel, just from all the many years of talking with unschooling families and just families in general that are not unschooling – I think most children go through an aversion to bathing season. For some it can be really intense and there can be some serious sensory pieces involved that just makes bathing dysregulating and really feel scary and hard. And for others it just isn’t a priority because they’re having too much fun doing something else. And then I know lots who love their nightly bath and it’s not a big deal. And teeth brushing is not a problem. And it just  works smoothly for them. So I think the big takeaway, and you know, we’re gonna dive into this, but I think it’s just knowing that there’s no one way to approach hygiene. And so it really can leave space for us to find something that works for all of us. And I’ll talk a little bit more about my piece of that too, because I think that’s the key. It has to work for all of us, it has to feel comfortable for everybody in the family. And so when we can get creative and let go of that outside noise, that’s where it doesn’t have the weight. ERIKA: Yeah, it is a big topic and it does come up so much, and I think it’s because there’s just so much fear in this topic. For adults and parents, because as parents we’re thinking, this is our responsibility. This is very important. This is, their lives are at stake. It could feel like this very high stakes area, along with maybe food. These are the things that we think, this is very important. Right? Very important. But I think as we are feeling those feelings and thinking in that way, we have to start trying to see like how, I know you mentioned this all the time, Anna, about where the messages are coming from because I think it may be that we have our own personal fears about things that are hygiene related, but I bet a lot of it is coming from, What are people going to think about how my child’s hair is looking today? Or what are people going to think if I walk outside and they’re like this? Maybe it’s the judgment of our relatives. Maybe it’s just the judgment of strangers on the street. The fear of judgment of others can be really huge in this area. And so then, like we were talking about in the last episode, that tunnel vision sets in, we’re not able to be open and curious about it. We’re tunneled in on, but it’s supposed to look this way. I really need to make sure my kid does it in this way because this is what everyone says is the safe, correct way to handle hygiene. And so I think if we can, bring some playful energy to our day, if we can do that with hygiene, it just will help so much with letting us notice all the different possibilities. And then we can also be open to hearing what our children are saying about what’s not working for them, about these different things, about the teeth brushing, about the hair brushing, all the different things that are involved in taking care of their physical body. They know how it’s feeling for them. But if we get stuck on, I have to make you do it in this way, then we’re not hearing what the actual needs that they have are about. What sensory part is not feeling good, what timing of it is not feeling good.  Just thinking about brushing your teeth, there are so many different tools that are out there for brushing your teeth. It’s not just a toothbrush and toothpaste. There’s all different things. Once you can start getting creative about what doesn’t feel good about it: Is it the taste? Is it the texture? Is it taking too long? There’s one saying it can brush your whole mouth in 10 seconds or something like that. It’s a whole mouth toothbrush. I have never tried that. But anyway, there are lots of possibilities if we can step out of the fear tunnel vision and into what are some other options here? PAM: And I think you mentioned it’s just one of the biggest things when we first start thinking about it, or it was for me is recognizing, realizing that so many of the expectations that I had, that I was putting on my kids around this stuff were actually the result of expectations I was putting on myself to not feel judged by others. If we just think, oh, it’s an at home day today, we don’t have to dress in these particular clothes. We can wear our pajamas. Just imagine what’s the difference between an at home and an outside day? That might be a great place just to start playing with it and playing with what expectations am I putting on myself that I need to do as a parent so that I’m not judged by other people. For me, that was a big one, certainly at the beginning of the journey. And when I just continue to ask myself questions. We can put these expectations on us as adults as well, right? But we’re talking about our kids now, and these can be big things and they can cause so many rifts in our relationship and we can get that tunnel vision thinking we have to do it this one way. And it feels like it takes like an hour. It takes an hour to get them dressed in the morning, takes an hour to brush their teeth at night, because it’s just this constant rub and trying to convince them. And I think that can be another great clue if we find ourselves trying to convince our kids, whether it’s a shower or toothbrushing, or to finish their plate or to wear these clothes. When we find ourselves trying to convince them, those rubs are probably great places to start. And so yeah. Start to recognize, is that an expectation I’m holding? Why am I holding that expectation? Your conversation, Anna, about the different cultures, how you can find people recommending and saying just about anything. They’re all different. So really can be what actually works for us instead of us fitting into a thing or a way of doing a thing. What way actually works for us and helps us? Play around with different shampoos, dry hair, shampoos, different toothpaste, different toothbrushes, some sort of funky ten second full mouth brushing. ANNA:  I know, I’m curious about that now. We’re going to look it up.  What really struck me was something you said, Erika, just about the fear piece. This comes up a lot in a place like the network. So, this is a little plug for the network too, because someone will come with something that feels really weighty about personal hygiene, whether it’s a toothbrushing or knotted hair. With no idea what to do, “They don’t want to ever bathe!”. And you can feel the weight, right? You can feel the fear, you can feel, they just feel so stuck. Because I think with fear, it’s the opposite of creativity, right? It completely shuts that down. We’re just so stuck. Stuck is the word that keeps coming to mind. But what’s really cool about those threads is that then you’ll see this boom, boom, boom of people saying all the creative ways that they’ve fixed the hair, done the thing, made toothbrushing fun, did this or that, and then you feel the lightness come to that person. It’s not that any one of the answers are necessarily the right answer for their family, but the block is gone. The fear is lifted. Oh, other people have to deal with this. Oh, there are lots of different ways to look at this problem and we can start getting creative. I feel like this relates to the podcast a couple weeks ago about being playful and, and for me it’s like feeling that in your body if you are feeling stuck. It’s not going to go well, when we feel stuck. Just step away from the problem. If you’re feeling that in your body, step away and figure out how to lighten your energy. Bring some to yourself. If you’re feeling concerned or worried, talk to someone else. And that’s why it’s nice to be able to talk to people that may also be in a similar situation, because then you’re going to get interesting, creative ideas that may actually work for your family. But I think the big gift of it is just opening it up and realizing there are so many different ways to tackle this one problem that I thought there was only one way to get through it. And that one way is usually either something we’ve gotten from our family or we’ve read something that’s maybe a bit more dogmatic about washing or not washing. Because you’re so right, Pam. There are a whole host of people that are like, don’t wash. You’re taking stuff off your skin. That’s really beneficial, and then there’s the other people that are like germs! We have to wash everything and so we can let all of that go and find what works for us and really tune into our kids. I love that you said that, Erika, because they have things to share, and while baths may be a no-go, what if it is just for one small thing? I don’t like the temperature of the water, or I don’t like how it feels slippery on the bottom. We had that at some point. Just put a towel down. Yes, it gets wet and it’s messy, but if that feels better to them or that might feel worse, or they don’t, maybe like this itchy part, and then we can see the bath’s not the problem. It was this other little thing that I wasn’t even hearing because I was just thinking we’ve got to do this. And so I love that. Slow it down, tune in and then the creativity comes and we learn, we learn so much more about each other. ERIKA: I love that slow down part too. Because it’s whenever I’m getting into either trying to rush through or I’m stuck in that fear place, that’s when these things don’t work well. Basically this is feeling like part two of the last podcast of bringing a playful energy and that is how this stuff gets easier. And, right, checking in with the people on the network about all of these topics is so incredible because anything that feels like this gigantic weight, scariest thing that we’ve ever been through, you type it on there and it’s like, oh yeah, my kids went through that phase as well. And when you were talking about the kids’ needs again that just brought up that it could be things that aren’t even at all related to the hygiene thing itself. And so that’s why I think just getting completely, open, playful, open and curious mindset is so important. Because it really could just be, I don’t like the way that you do this particular part of it. I don’t like how we are trying to brush my teeth right after having a drink or the drink doesn’t, water doesn’t taste good after I brush my teeth, so I need to drink first. It could be just a million different possibilities of what are the things that are bothering them about these particular behaviors that we’re trying to make happen? We are just always learning more about our differences and so with my kids, I like to expand the possibilities and talk about it as in, some people like to do it this way, and I’ve heard that some people do this and I’ve heard that some people do this. Looking at all the different possibilities of what different people do might give them an idea of, okay, like I don’t like the way that mommy does it herself, but here are some other people who are doing things differently. Just widening our view of what’s possible. PAM: Yeah, that’s so helpful. And I think going back to that weight that we can feel when I can’t see anything, any possibility for moving forward, but I need to make this thing happen. I think it can often be because we are projecting that into the future. They’re having a hard time. I can’t get them to brush their teeth the way I want them to brush their teeth now, and that’s just going to be this way forever. I have to solve it today or we’re never going to do it again. How are they going to get a job? They like to wear their pajamas all day. So being able to release that weight and ing that people change. This is a season, like don’t sweat the small stuff. Phrasing, like these are just little pieces. Instead of looking at  this day, look at a week, look at a month. Look back at previous seasons. Oh, I when they used to do this thing and I thought they would just do it forever, and now I noticed they hardly ever do it anymore. Sometimes looking back to recognize that things often move seasonally, that we grow and change, can help us from getting locked into I need to solve this thing right now, which takes away the playfulness, takes away the seeing other possibilities. Oh, some people do this, some people do this, some people do this. And you know, you might find something that’s totally uniquely you inside that whole spectrum of possibilities.  So yeah, I think just finding the way that works for you to release the weight around it. That doesn’t put so much pressure on it. It can just be so super helpful in just bringing, again, like we were talking about last time, the creativity to it. Right? And that’s where you can find their need. That’s where you’re now more open to having conversations and finding out what’s going on and where you can actually get playful and creative. ANNA: Right, because it’s in that place again that we’re going to learn more and I think a piece that we’ve all touched on, but it’s just trusting there’s something there. There’s something there that is bothering them or isn’t working. And I think we can get stuck in, especially if we’re in that needing to check the box and get through the day mode. When we have that more hurried energy, we can just feel like they are literally trying to thwart us. They’re just trying to do this thing to make my life terrible. When I find myself in that space, I’m like, okay, slow down, slow down. What’s happening? The world is not out to get me. What can I do? And then again, like you said, Erika, it can be the tiniest thing that’s not even related, and I’m like, we can fix that. We can change that. But when I just have this frustrated energy of, we just have to do that, and I’m pushing, pushing, pushing. They don’t even want to speak up about what the thing is because, I don’t seem open to it. I don’t seem open to really hearing and understanding what’s happening for them. And when we think of, sometimes I think it’s helpful to think as adults. We have these little quirky things that we do, we’ve all found our way that works for us with our hair or with our hygiene, teeth, or whatever the thing is. And they’re discovering that for themselves and it’s going to be different for them. To give space and to honor that. I don’t know. Sometimes when we can see it in ourselves, it’s easier to go. Yeah, it makes sense that they’re going to have these particular things that they have to find and work through. And, again, just being open to, tags feel bad to some people. And I know with my oldest, she’d always wanted to wear the softest pants and no tags and no nothing. I mean, really until she was a teen, I thought she’d always wear that.  The pajama comment reminded me, Pam, because we just kind of went with clothes that were like pajamas. They were super soft, super comfortable because that’s what helped her nervous system be able to handle things. And then she became a teenager and wanted to wear jeans and she was fine. And it switched. And I’m like, okay. And even if she never had, it wouldn’t matter, she was listening to her body, she was learning what helped her feel better in different situations. And that’s kind of cool, right? So, if I can get out of my head and step back and watch it, then I can enjoy this process of this human finding, what works for them in the world. ERIKA: I’m trusting that they have the information about themselves and we can be interested in that.  And I was thinking too, how narration might be something nice to do in this area as well. Because I think a lot of times it’s this top down giving orders in the area of hygiene. But if it could be more like, you know, something I’ve noticed about myself is when I’m more stressed out, I get stinkier armpits. Is that something weird or interesting? And so, just talking about hygiene things like, my teeth feel so nice and clean after I brush them at night or whatever. Just anything that’s my experience of my own hygiene practices. Then it starts to get them to think about how it feels to them. What do I like about it, how do I feel after I take a shower, have a bath or whatever. And so, I think it’s kind of related to sharing other people’s ideas too. But I think especially just for me, rather than talking about I think you should do this, I could say, well, I do this because then I feel like this. PAM: Yeah. And I think that is such a great place to just start asking ourselves some questions too, like is it maybe that we are trying to direct them to take care of hygiene the way that we do it? Or are there some places that we’re kind of disappointed in ourselves and we have this perfect idea of, we wish we could meet and so we’ll get our kids to at least meet it? Because then they won’t have the same problem that we have with, oh damn, I wish I had another, a shower today. So, to be able to even think about it as narrating. Has us thinking about it and sometimes maybe giving ourselves more grace around it and recognizing that, again, it’s a journey. Maybe what I’m doing right now is working for me, and then something switches up someday and I change up. How I process hygiene for myself, et cetera. So understanding and seeing how that has changed for us over time can also help us open it up for our kids as well, and really help them find what works for them versus whatever story works for us. Or that we wish worked for us, and then trying to translate that and get them to follow it. Just recognizing the challenge of that in the whole, people are a different world.  ANNA: Yeah and the stinky armpits reminded me that sometimes it’s actually, when we’re trying to find a mutually agreeable solution, there are issues, right? So I am hypersensitive to smell. And there was a teen, early teen period where I was like, this is very hard for me to have stinky people that are coming around. But instead of, you need to do this, you need to do that, it was that narration. I know, I’m so sensitive to smell. This is hard for me right now. What can we figure out. Then they can recognize that’s about me and what’s happening for me. Versus there’s something wrong, me pointing the finger. And so it’s okay to have conversations with those “I” messages about what is feeling good or what’s working or what’s hard. And you know, I also had girls that had long hair and I found it stressful to be combing their hair if they weren’t doing it. It was getting knotted and I could express, this is feeling stressful for me. What can we do? I want to you and what you want your hair to like, but then you’re coming to me telling me to brush it. So it was, how do we all work in this together? And that’s where the conversations come. And when you bring that lighter, playful energy to it, nobody’s left feeling bad about it. It’s more just like, okay, how do we solve this so that it feels okay? And I think that’s why we talk so much about checking that energy. So you can see it’s kind of this layered process of peeling away the external voices, really tuning in and understanding about each other and what’s happening so we can figure out what’s actually rubbing. And then it’s adding some narration about our process and then it’s conversations about are there solutions we can come up with that feel good to everybody? But you can’t rush it. You kind of have to do all the layers, so that you can get down to a light energy and engage in conversation that doesn’t have weight to it. ERIKA: Right. Not the fear-based place, but the curious place. Because I’m thinking even just with hair, do you like having long hair or has it just gotten long and we haven’t talked about it? You know? And so finding out, is long hair important to you? Does it bother you when it’s getting all tangled like that? Just giving the information that trimming it can sometimes make it easier to get some of those end tangles out. We could trim off some tangles. They’re not born knowing all the possibilities of things. And so I think that’s just part of our bringing that creativity and ideas to them, but without the “right answer”, without the agenda and the fear. Then there’s tons of possibilities. PAM: And then when you can get to that spot where it’s fun to brainstorm possibilities and sharing that without the weight, without the fear, but this is a possibility. This is a possibility. Anyway, thank you so much to both of you. That was a very fun and interesting conversation, and I hope people found it useful. And we’ve mentioned the Living Joyfully Network a few times in this call because these are very, typical, normal kinds of conversations and challenges to run into. You can us there to dive deeper into any of these kinds of everyday topics. And we will be very excited to welcome you! Just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on community in the menu. Wishing everyone a lovely day. Bye bye!

In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore bringing a playful energy to our days. Shifting to a playful energy can be helpful when we’re feeling stuck, with spinning thoughts, worrying about the future, or focused on external expectations. We can cultivate a lightness and curiosity that helps us get creative and come up with many possibilities to help us face the situations in front of us. Play is also the natural way that children process their lives. So, bringing a playful energy into our days can help us connect with our kids, as well! We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships! THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more! We invite you to us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation! Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling? Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram. Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling. So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ANNA: Hello, everyone! I am Anna Brown from Living Joyfully, and today I’m ed by my co-hosts, Pam Laricchia and Erika Ellis. Hello!  PAM AND ERIKA: Hi!  ANNA: Before we get started, I wanted to encourage you to check out our shop, where you can find books, courses, coaching, and information about the Living Joyfully Network. The shop has resources and for every stage of your journey, and you can find a link in the show notes, or you can visit livingjoyfullyshop.com. Today we’re going to be talking about bringing a playful energy to our days, and I don’t know, I think this is going to be a lot of fun. So, Erika, do you want to get us started? ERIKA: I do! And Happy New Year to everyone! Yes. I just love this time of year and how it can really inspire me to bring a bit more intention into my daily routine. I really feel like this idea, bringing a playful energy to our days, could be such a fun intention to explore. And, Pam, you’ve certainly encouraged me through this podcast over the years to play with ideas and to play with possibilities. And getting open and curious often feels like being playful. And so, I did want to start out just by reminding us all that people are different, and one person’s definition of bringing a playful energy to our days is going to look different from another. And so, pretend play, being silly, exploring characters, getting right in there with our little kids in their imaginary worlds can come really easily to some parents and it’s not easy for others. And that’s okay, because we’re not talking about one right way or one definition of being playful. And so, I’m excited to see how many different areas we’ll end up talking about today.  But for me, bringing a playful energy means really lightening up my own energy about something. So, when I get bogged down by outside expectations or by fears about the future or anything like that, I can get into that tunnel vision mode, which is the opposite of having a playful energy. And so, when I start thinking about all the things that have to happen or what should be happening or what I have to do and what the kids should be doing, that’s just not a light place to be. And so, being open and curious, ing that there’s not one right way for things to happen, bringing a more playful approach to my days just lightens me up and I can see more possibilities. I can connect more easily with the people around me. I can think, huh, I wonder what’s going to happen next. Or, I wonder what we could do here. Let’s just try something. And that is this light energy that can help me move forward. Whereas the heavy energy of, we have to do this and I have to figure out the right way to do this, feels like it’s weighing me down and honestly can make me super grumpy. And that’s not even to mention how bringing playfulness into our days can help make things so much smoother and more fun for our kids. PAM: I am really excited to talk about this. And I think that was one of the things that really brought this top of mind for me, having talked about it for years now, because I found it so helpful for shifting my energy and my perspective and bringing me into the moment. When I’m future-focused and trying to figure all the things out, it just brought me back to my kids. And then from there, I learned how helpful it was even for me when I’m trying to process and move through my own things because, for me, the shift from having to figure everything out, I just get so very tunneled vision to try and find that one right answer, even if I’m not telling myself there’s one right answer for all humanity. Even trying to find one right answer that works for me can be very tunneling. I’m just so quickly throwing things out. Nope, nope, not that, not that, not that boom, boom, boom. Whereas when I can shift to that playfulness, I can be more open and curious about the thing. Everything doesn’t look like a no to me. It’s like, oh, I wonder? Or, what if? Or, how might that unfold? I hadn’t even thought of that! And that playfulness, too, lets me bring more things to my kids, to my partner. It’s like looking for a little bit more input and then I start sharing a little bit more, and then it doesn’t look as dire as it originally was for myself. And, like you said, alongside all the cool things that playfully engaging with my kids brings. That’s a whole other part of this conversation, but we’ll start with how it feels for us.  ANNA: Yeah. That’s definitely where I want to start. I do want to acknowledge what Erika said, too, about people are different. Pretend play did not come easy for me. So, I do think when people hear this, they’re like, but what if I’m not that playful person that looks like X? I think we will talk about that a little bit.  But really what I’m more interested in and what resonated for me about this topic was exactly what we’re talking about, how to shift our energy. And for me, I just trying to be mindful about if it felt like a difficult day, it felt like something, it’s that quick check-in with my body, like, whoa, I’m feeling a lot of weight. I feel a lot of heaviness. Something’s happening. And then I can just go, wait a minute, where’s that coming from? Look outside a little bit. And then bring in that playful energy. And I think our kids lead the way. I think if we turn to them, they’re most likely laughing or playing or doing something or enjoying something or can easily be tickled if we just bring in some fun energy, especially with little kids. And so, I think for me it was more just watching my energy, because I felt like my energy really impacted the whole house. And so, if I was carrying a lot of weight about something and maybe it was even unrelated to the kids, it was still helpful for me to check in with that and go, whoa, that thing is impacting the way I’m interacting with the people in my life. So, I would like to either set that aside so I can have some special time to think about it or address it. But then how do I lean back into the joy of having little kids?  And I think we get tied up in, there’s a lot of work feeding people and doing all the things. We can get weighed down by that, but it’s pretty amazing when you look at these little beings that are telling us all kinds of things, hopping around the house, so excited about the tiniest things, discovering things for the first time. That really helped me get to that playful energy was just watching their wonder and excitement about things and then recognizing, okay, that’s a choice I can make. And so, that really would shift things for me. ERIKA: Yeah, I love that. Kids are typically masters of play when they’re young. And so, it really can be so inspiring to see how they’re able to figure out a playful, fun way to do basically anything. And I like the idea that if we’re talking about bringing a playful energy to our days, it doesn’t mean now our days are just a hundred percent fun. It’s not that we have to turn everything into fun. But maybe starting to notice, what are the things that come up in a typical day for me where I start to close in and get stressed out. What are my triggers? And so, for me, it could be trying to get somewhere at a certain time. I feel this sense of panic, and I’m sure that comes from childhood and having to be in certain places at certain times. But if I think about my life now, if I can logically walk myself through it, these are not emergency situations 99 times out of a hundred. And so, it really is my own trigger, based not on something that’s happening in this moment, but just based on fear from the past. And so, I think those are moments, if I can identify the triggering things for me, those are the best spots to start playing around with it. What about when that’s starting to happen, I’m going to try to bring in a more playful energy about it? And reminding myself there’s plenty of time and all those soothing mantras. There is space to give this a little bit of room and to be more playful and curious about what could happen. And so, as adults with a lot of background and baggage that we’re carrying with us to this point, there are a lot of these little triggers through the day. And it could be things like mess. It could be being too tired. It could be cooking. That’s a big one for me. Like, what am I going to serve everyone? And it can bring up panic. And so, those are the spots where I especially want to start thinking about, how could I be a little bit more playful in this area? PAM: I love the idea of starting with triggers, because it’s like, okay, I’m going to be more playful. Where do you start with that? But where things rub or where things are triggered, those are great places to start. And I , for me, I usually start with some internal processing and figuring it out myself before I start trying to bring it to other people. Because I can’t really quite explain it yet or I don’t understand it. Like you were saying, so much of it is tools or reactions or things that we’ve built over the years to survive in various environments that we were in.  Like you mentioned, when we were growing up, if getting out the door was something that was a stress on the family, I just internalized that and have that with me. But to take a little bit of time to say, oh, the environment we have now is different than the environment then. We are different people. I can understand those feelings and that reaction, but is that something that’s serving me now? And that’s where I can start.  Now I can bring that more playful approach to thinking about other possibilities. And when I’m in a space where I understand enough that I’m open to possibilities, that’s a great time for me to start bringing it to others, because now I can actually hear it. I’m less putting it through that filter that I was owning and holding so tightly and more open to other possibilities.  And so many times, having these conversations with my kids, even when they were younger, gave me so many new ideas. We talk so much about how capable kids are at all ages. Even if it seems like something that would never work, oh my gosh, just sitting with their idea for a second can make another connection and another connection. It’s like, oh yeah, maybe it’s the energy that came with their idea. We don’t have to take everything absolutely literally, but just to pull it all together.  That’s why I love the brainstorming mindset, open and curious, see what happens. It doesn’t literally need to be something that comes up in that conversation, but those ideas connect to something else and something else and something else, and then we can see a new solution. And, for me, playfulness also means trying something and seeing what happens and then tweaking and trying something.  When I say play with it or when I remind myself to play with, it’s not like, okay, I’m going to play with the ideas until I get that one right thing that seems like it’ll be perfect, and then I’m going to do that thing. And then if it doesn’t work perfectly, I’ve failed. That whole process failed. But no, if I can think of the process as something playful, it’s like, oh, that seems pretty cool. Let’s try that. See what happens. Then you’re learning another little piece about some aspect or constraint of the challenge and then tweak it a little bit more and tweak it a little bit more. People are different and people are always changing. You’re not going to get like one right answer that’s going to be playful and fun and then we’re going to move on to something else with our lives. Now this is our life and this is how things are unfolding. So,bringing that playful energy to it helps me not put so many expectations on myself and all the people around me, right? ANNA: Yeah, and I think I love starting with triggers. And I think starting with where things are rubbing. A big one for a lot of people are transitions. And what’s interesting about that, if you have a child that struggles with transitions, it can weigh on you, right? You’re going to the event, the playground, whatever it is, and you’re thinking, this is great and then we’re going to have this terrible transition. And that’s that piece I was talking about before. Watch when you’re carrying weight like that, because you’re creating the story before it’s even started. And that doesn’t mean that you can click a switch and transitions are easy, but it opens us up to find different ways and to try different things. And it’s going to be different every time. But it can be literally playful, like piggyback rides to the car or we would do a race to tree or we’d find these fun things to move towards. Moving towards something versus, we have to leave this thing you’re loving so much and do nothing, which is kind of how it feels in their mind. But it’s like, okay, let’s move towards something that’s fun.  But I think we get that playful creativity when we’re not carrying the weight of, this is going to be hard. This is so terrible. We’re so bad at this. You can just feel yourself shrinking in on, we’re going to make a scene and people are going to be worried about it, or whatever’s going to happen. And I think I talked about this somewhere recently, but just when we are calm in that space and bringing that lightness to it, even if our child is struggling in that moment, people are just calmed by that. They’re like, oh, you’ve got this. Yes, we’re a little bit upset about this transition, but you are still there engaging with your child. You are still there finding ways to move through it.  So, it’s literal play sometimes, but it is that playing with, I’m going to try this this time. Okay, that didn’t work. We’re going to try this next time. But not putting a lot of weight on each of those decisions either, not putting weight on, this has to be the thing that works. Or when we find something that works, it has to work forever. It just doesn’t work that way.  And so, I think it’s probably a culturally ingrained idea that we’re going to find the right answer and it’s going to work forever. That really limits us when we’re working with other people, because humans are different and challenging and have different things that mean things to them and different things they want to do, different ways they want to move through the world. So, I just love that check on my energy of, what am I bringing to this maybe historical, challenging bit of our life? ERIKA: If you have a feeling of dread about certain things that happen in your life, those may also be good spots to look at or, or times when your child is always upset or that you’re always having conflict about a certain area.  And I love the idea that play means, let’s try something different this time. And when you go into that, let’s try something different this time with a playful energy. Then you’re not attached to the outcome of that thing. And so, that’s where you’re able to really just brainstorm, try something that you would’ve never tried before, and then see what happens. And so I think, as we are getting to know these people, our children who are growing and changing, we’re always learning more about who they are. We’re always growing ourselves and learning about who we are and just getting more information. And so, it makes sense that we are not going to know from the beginning how all of these things are going to play out. Having that playful energy about the conflicts, about the rubs that we find along the way, I think just helps so much. And I’m thinking it’s from the little things like leaving the park with young kids and they don’t want to leave yet. It’s so hard to validate if I’m stuck in my head telling a terrible story about how awful this is, and I knew this was going to happen, and here we go again and like all those kind of feelings. But if I can be playful about, you know, what’s coming next and get myself into the place of validating them, it can go so much more smoothly than if I shut down on my side and they have a hard time on their side.  But then also I was thinking of harder things like, you know, when our teens are having really dark thoughts and really a difficult time. How can I bring play into those moments that are just like tearing my heart out? But it’s true that lightening up my energy is still going to be a better choice in those moments. And it’s not easy to hear your children say things that are really upsetting or that they’re having a very difficult time. But trying to move myself away from the future fear, tunnel vision, that sense of dread and to trust, what’s going to happen next? There are so many possibilities. Let’s try something new. That more playful place is going to help in all kinds of circumstances. ANNA: Yeah. I’m going to just jump on that teen piece real quick because I think it is so important. And what I’ve noticed, and this can even be with the younger kids, but especially with teens, when they bring us something heavy or that feels really big to them, and whatever the thing is might be really big, they are looking to us to see, is this going to break us? Are we going to say, whew, we’re throwing up our hands. This is too much. Or are we going to stand there with that confidence and knowing and trust and leaning in? Because they’re testing the waters. This thing’s feeling really big. And what is it going to do to this person that I love, who I trust and who tends to lead me through these things in the past?  And so, I think that is so important to check our energy in those situations. And if we need outside of that dyad with our teen, then that’s great. Get the , because whoa, they shared some heavy things and that was hard. We can get validation and ourselves, but when we can be just much more clear and open with our energy.  And I’m substituting creative energy with playful in some situations. So, in some situations maybe it’s more just like a lighter creative energy with that trust built in that you were talking about. And so, sometimes, again, we’re literally talking about play and making it fun and laughing and doing, and sometimes it just is bringing that lighter, creative, even more problem solving kind of energy, which still has this playful aspect to it. PAM: Yeah, that is what came up for me, too. It’s like, oh, maybe we should just revisit the idea of playful for a moment. Because as we’ve been talking about it as this lighter energy, more open and curious doesn’t necessarily, and certainly not always mean jokey and fun in the typical sense of, oh, that’s hard. Let’s go play a game. That’s not what we’re meaning when we talk about playful energy.  But playful really works for me as a term for bringing that lighter, creative, open and curious kind of energy to a moment. And then it means I’m open to seeing and feeling what the other person in that interaction is feeling and going through, to help get a sense of what direction might be helpful, but yes. That grounded energy in more challenging times is so helpful for us and for the other person, especially a teen. Like, yes, I see you. This is hard and we can do it. We can do it. That energy is just so helpful when somebody is just feeling hopeless or just like, I can’t see a path forward.  And we don’t need to have the answer or the path to have that grounded and curious energy when we’re interacting with them or even when we’re thinking about it. Because if we don’t, we get caught again in that tunnel vision. Oh my gosh. We need to solve this as soon as possible. Or terrible things are going to happen. But yeah, bringing that openness to it, that curiosity, but that grounded, solid, playful, comionate, all those , it’s so much more helpful than getting caught up in the swirl of things. ANNA: Yeah. Before we go, I’m going to just bring us around to, just again, playfulness, right? And lighten it up just a little bit, because I think sometimes with kids, we get in the adult mindset of, I just tell you what to do and you’re going to do it. Go brush your teeth, it’s time to brush your teeth. Or, do this. We’re getting in this check the box mode or whatever our personality is. And it really can be fun to bring in actual play, especially for younger kids. So again, this is looking at those rub areas to think, what can I do to make this fun? And it’s tickle monster or silly toothbrush or the airplane things or the whatever. There are so many fun ways to connect and move through the world, and I think our kids really give us that little check when we’re getting too serious, because they can put on the brakes if we are getting too serious. You see them dig in. And so, it’s just a reminder that that doesn’t mean we have to double down and push harder and try to really force. It can be a little wake up call of like, hey, why are we not bringing a lighter energy to this? Why are we bringing this weight? So, I just wanted to bring it around for little kids too, because the teens are important, absolutely. And so are the little kids, that playful piece. ERIKA: Right. And I just so many times where what it will feel like from my perspective is like I’m getting stuck in my head with what we have to do next and trying to move us towards what we have to do next or thinking about something I have to do. And that’s pulling me out of the moment. And I could notice myself not being able to listen to them quite as much and I’m not quite paying attention to what they’re doing and what they’re saying. And so, being playful allows me to notice that too much thinking is going on. I’m looking back at them, and then once I start interacting with them, that’s how all the transitions got easier. Transitions are hard when I can’t hear anything they’re saying. We’re doing this, we’re doing this. Let’s keep moving. Like, what you’re doing isn’t important. We just have to keep moving. That’s when my transitions would really go off the rails. But if I could be engaged with what they’re doing, talking to them about it, interacting, asking about the characters, asking about what they’re doing, really getting into what they’re focusing on, then we could get out the door, because they’re happily talking to me about the things that they’re interested in and wanting to do. And so, it really is for me the tool of stopping the spinning thoughts in my own head and bringing myself back into the present moment with the kids who are basically always in the present moment. And so, that’s really great. I could just look at them and that’s the present moment. And so, I just had so much fun playing around with what could be difficult transitions, but now it really is just fun, like, okay, we’re all exploring this topic or we’re all talking about this funny thing, or whatever it is, playing a game on the way out the door. PAM: I’m playfully coming up with that. I love the transition example, because that is just a huge piece. And the learning and ing to go to them and engage. We are part of it. It’s not us trying to manage their transition. We are all transitioning out the door or to a different activity or to people showing up, just a change of circumstance. And it was just a world of difference to recognize and to be like, oh, okay. I’ll actually come in and you where you are and engage, whether it’s, like you were mentioning Erika, starting up a conversation that we can continue as we move on. Or maybe it’s like really engaging with them and understanding, sharing in whatever joy they’ve been getting from whatever activities they’re doing as you’re helping them close it down or get to a spot where they feel comfortable stopping. And doing it playfully with intention and full choice rather than, oh, this is another thing on my plate that I need to do to get us there. No, this is life. We’re changing activities.  So, just being there with them. And Anna, that reminder about literal play, whether it’s brushing teeth or whatever it is. There’s a Pokemon app for teeth. There are just so many fun ways to really figure out like what is that’s a bit of the challenge. It can also be the transition, too, having to brush your teeth, just all those pieces are pieces we can play with and just try things out. For me, that was the biggest thing. Just try a little something out. And see how it goes. And there we’re playing with it. ERIKA: And just allowing ourselves as adults to actually play the things, too. To play Roblox, play Minecraft, play with the toys, check out the things, see what lights up that inner child in ourselves. I feel like those practices, too, just make our lives more fun and help our kids see the fun in us, which, I think, really helps our relationships too. ANNA: Yeah, that’s what I was going to say. Just to wrap it all up, I love how what is weaving into this conversation is the connection we talk about so much and learning about one another. Because when we’re slowing down and connecting and figuring out what the rubs are and finding playful solutions, we’re learning about each other. We’re learning about ourselves, we’re learning about our kids, and that’s what we always talk about. So, I love that. It just weaves all together. And I feel like this was a fun and important conversation.  So, thanks to you both and thank you for listening. We hope you found it helpful on your unschooling journey. And if you enjoy these kinds of conversations, I think you would really love the Living Joyfully Network. You can learn more about it at livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on the community button at the top. We hope to see you there. Take care, everybody. PAM AND ERIKA: Bye!

In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika dive into consent and autonomy. Moving towards respecting our children’s autonomy and consent is typically an important part of the unschooling journey. In our conversation, we talk about independence vs autonomy, looking for underlying needs, questioning societal messages, and moving from control to connection with our children. We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships! THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more! We invite you to us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation! Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling? Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram. Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling. So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ERIKA: Hello everyone. I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully, and I’m ed by my co-host, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia. I’m so excited because this week we’re exploring consent and autonomy, and I really think these are just such deep topics with so many layers, and maybe it becomes a bit more complicated to consider consent and autonomy when we’re in a holiday season or when we are surrounded by our families of origin. Maybe it feels like there are more external expectations on us and our kids, and so I think it’s a great time to dive into this topic. And on that same note, I wanted to mention that the Living Joyfully Shop has courses and coaching to help you through this time of year, including the course called Navigating Family Gatherings. There’s a lot to think about when we are preparing to spend time with family, especially during holidays with a lot of traditions and expectations. And some families may particularly have expectations of how children should show up around the holidays, and our unique families might have a different idea of how we want the gatherings to feel. The course can offer you some ideas about how to navigate some of those challenges that come up. You can learn more about that course and all the others at livingjoyfullyshop.com. And now, Pam, would you like to get us started on our conversation? PAM: Sure, I would love to. And I do love how the ideas of consent and autonomy weave together, and also how this flows from our last podcast episode about weaving our needs into the conversation. So, I think that’s going to be a really fun conversation as well.  With unschooling, we do prioritize giving our children choices and ing their autonomy. But what truly lies at the heart of that is consent. In fact, consent lives at the forefront of pretty much every interaction we have with kids. Now, I know as adults we often talk about consent in a sexual context, but when we try on the lens of a child’s consent to do things throughout their day, I think it really can be so eye-opening, and a real paradigm shift. I notice when I override their consent, what I’m often doing is not giving them the space to consider whether or not they want to do the thing, right? Maybe it’s because I think of it as a given. They’ve always wanted to do this before. We’re just going to do it. Or maybe I’m in a hurry and feel like I don’t have time for the conversations. It’s not a callous thing. It’s usually more of a, I didn’t even really think about it kind of thing. That’s why it’s interesting to just start using that lens throughout our day. Because it can definitely have consequences if we are not really considering their consent. One can be eroding the trust in our relationship. It’s harder to trust someone when it feels like they’re railroading you to do things to keep themselves on track. Right? It’s not even asking, leaving the child not feeling seen and heard, because really they aren’t. Our needs are kind of overriding what’s going on. And another can be that they start to internalize this and think that they’re wrong to want to do the thing that they want to do, the choice that they want to make in that moment. And that can start to dampen down their inner voice. What they want to do in the moment or what they feel about the moment if we keep jumping in without giving them the space to process that and bring that into the conversation and fully consent to what they’re doing. Well, if my parent thinks that I should be doing this, because they’re saying, let’s go do this, let’s go do this. We’re going to go do this now. What I’m thinking must be wrong. Or I’m wrong for wanting to, or not wanting to do those things that are expected of me. And then they can lose their voice that way, I think. ANNA: I think it just erodes that understanding of ourselves because I think that dissonance is actually what causes a lot of stress and anxiety in people of all ages. And we can carry into adulthood. And that is this, they’re telling me that either what I want to do or don’t want to do is wrong. But I’m feeling it deep inside of me that I don’t want to go do that thing or that I really want to stay focused on this one thing in front of me. It just erodes this trust in our inner voice and our knowing about ourselves. And I think that is just a really slippery slope. And I know as the parent that’s often coming from a really loving place, like, we’re going to have so much fun, or it’s going to be great, or we want to all be together. We’re not going in there thinking, I am eroding your voice, or I want you to feel bad about yourself. No, we’re coming in with this love and excitement about the plan. Or maybe a feeling of, I know better than you. I can see this longer picture, but to me, it’s worse having them doubt or question that inner voice because that serves them so much throughout their life to really hear and listen to that. I think it’s also a safety thing. I think it’s a personal development thing. I think it’s related to relationships and how they show up in relationships later. So to me it’s so foundational, this idea of consent and it was really consent that led me on this path.  I do not like to be controlled. So consent is something that really, even before I had kids, was really important to me. And so then it was this new area to test and because it’s different with kids, right? Because we do have these ideas, I think we talked about it on the last podcast of – it’s my time. I’m going to be able to do the things I want to do. But then you have this fully formed human that has very strong ideas about what they want to do. And it did not take me long again, because I don’t personally like to be controlled to go, oh, okay. I don’t want to be the person that’s controlling them and not allowing them to listen to their voice, to not hear them, because I know how terrible that feels.  The whole idea of consent is so important to me, and it is wrapped up and weaves nicely with autonomy because that is this idea of, what do we want to do? What feels good? How do we want to move forward? I feel like this topic is so vast, though, so I have so many things I want to say, but I’ll see what you’re thinking, Erika, before I just keep going, there’s so much I want to say! ERIKA: Right. And the more we think about it, I think the more things pop up. I the episode where we talked about cultivating our children’s inner voices or  allowing space for that to develop and how important that is to me.  When I’m thinking about this topic, I’m ing how it felt to be a kid. It is so powerful to just go back to even four and 5-year-old me, little me. And I can knowing what felt good, knowing what felt scary, knowing that I knew for myself what felt right and what didn’t. And so having the space to express that as a kid is so huge. And then having someone who actually will believe your experience, believe that you could have a different opinion than someone else. And then to tell you that that’s okay. That is just the biggest gift that we could give to someone. And I really think that it is what will help them trust their inner voice. And from my perspective as a parent, it’s fun because I’m learning about someone who I haven’t met before, which is my child. This person who is their own person through and through, and they know what they want. They know what feels bad and what feels good. And so, just cultivating that curiosity from the parent perspective. What could I learn about my child today? What are they going to show me about how they want their life to be? Rather than me coming in saying, I know how children are supposed to be, or, I know what I like and so therefore you like it. I know that you do because it’s great  Talking over their inner voice disconnects them. It breaks that trust they have in us. And, the more that I can hold space, leave space for them to say, I know you’re loving this, but I don’t like it, they just trust me so much more and then I’m learning about them and it’s so rewarding, I think as a parent. PAM: I like rewarding, what a lovely word. What I find so fascinating is when we railroad over their consent, what we’re really doing too is interfering with their learning, like the choice that they want to make in that moment, what they do or don’t want to do. They will learn the most by having that experience, not by us stopping them from having that experience. What we’re thinking might be, I don’t think you’re going to like that and you really want to go. That’s going to mean X, Y, Z, whatever story we tell ourselves about it. But you know what, if they really want to try this thing, they want to do this thing. If they can do that, they are going to learn so much in that moment. It’s like us telling somebody else what we think the outcome will be for them. And you know what? We are not them. Right? And how often have we just taken at face value, something somebody tells us as like, yeah, you won’t like that, or you’ll love this, et cetera. It doesn’t feel good to us, doesn’t feel good to someone at any age. When we are wanting an experience, we will learn the most by having it, and then we can say, I did not like this, X, Y, Z about it. I really learned that because I have the experience, I now have the context. I’m now making those connections in my own head, building my body of knowledge around myself and I’m gaining self-awareness. It’s like, oh, I didn’t think it would be this way. Right? Or, I loved it, et cetera. It really helps with learning. So when we’re in that experience, it really makes connections for us. It really helps us understand ourselves and the things we do and don’t like to do. So, when we step in, even with the biggest heart because we don’t want them to be upset or we don’t feel we have the energy for an overloaded environment or something like that. Those are considerations, but also the more we can help them have the experiences they are looking to have, the more they will learn. So, not walking over their consent also means they will be learning something that is close to their heart right now because this is a choice that they’re wanting to make right now and that will help them take the next step. Instead of having to keep asking for that step over and over and over, they’re just kind of stuck in their learning at that point because we’re not helping them bring more in around what they’re learning. ANNA: I love that learning point and I think we talk about consent and autonomy a lot. There’s other conversations, definitely on the network and I think even some other podcasts have hints of it as well. But I think this is just another opportunity to examine, to really look in and think about our thinking. Because if you were to ask any person, do you want to push through your child’s consent? Most likely the answer is no, because that doesn’t sound good. We’ve all learned that consent is important and we need to understand it. And we have an expectation that teenagers will understand it and that other adults will understand it. And we see it play out in ways and we are upset about it, where we feel like our consent has been violated. So we would say no. But this is where we can examine, but am I doing it again with this big heart thinking I know best, or thinking that if I just do this, then push them a little bit here or just not worry about that they don’t want to do that there, then it’s going to be okay. So to maybe flip it on the other side, I think we all want comionate people, right? We want our kids to be comionate and kind and this is where it starts, this right here. This one piece to me is so critical in having a world that’s filled with comion, because when we can slow things down to really hear what’s happening to someone. I’m thinking of 4-year-old Erika who knows what she needs and wants in that situation. What a different world it is when someone says, Hey, I get that. I get that you don’t want to do that, or you’re seeing it differently than I am, or that you don’t like it right now because it’s right now, and she might like it later, so I don’t have to future trip on, oh, she’s not doing this one thing, and she’ll never do it. I can just say, I want to honor you where you are. Because again, that’s where comion is born. And then that child wants to offer that to the next person and the next person, and it spreads from there. So I think just pausing and slowing down and maybe a little examining about what it is that we want to be fostering in our environment. What is it that we want to be learning about, because it’s learning for me too, because it’s hard to live with other people. It’s hard to take everybody into consideration and all of those pieces. But then there’s so much reward to it and so much learning. That’s what makes it doable for me. Because I think some people think I can’t do that. It takes too much time. Or I don’t have the bandwidth, but when I really think about what are my core values and what am I wanting to foster and create, then it makes that easy. It makes taking that time easy, it makes spending that little bit of extra energy so much easier. ERIKA: That’s why the work for us to do is our internal work. And being resourced, being given that time and space in my own mind is enough to leave that room for them to express what they’re feeling about a situation. It does take intention and it does take patience. And that’s why I think that weaving in our needs from last time is also so critical here because it really is when I feel like I’m in a rush, I feel like I’m doing a million things, those are the moments that I’m the most likely to push through someone’s consent because it’s just one more thing on my plate. That’s what it feels like, you know? We’re trying to get out the door and now they’re saying that they are worried about going. How do I have time to deal with that conversation? And so that really is the time to the why. The most important thing that I could do in this life is this. These conversations with the kids, leaving the space for them to have their feelings and to figure out what feels good moving forward. And so, yeah, I just think it is all my work to do. And we were probably not modeled much of this as kids and growing up in a really controlling environment of school. And so, it’s just a lot of intention that has to come from me. PAM: Yeah. I love the way you expressed that, Erika, that this is our intention. This really is the important work that I want to choose to do in these moments and to feel reasonable enough that you can make that shift right in the moment when we recognize that somebody is feeling like their consent is being pushed on. And, if one of the things we were wanting to talk about that I feel is so important is not only not pushing their consent, but it’s in of their autonomy, right. Of them making choices. And like I was talking about before, making these choices is reflecting who they are in that moment and what they’re wanting or not wanting to do, right? We want to give them choices so that they can then pursue who they are and explore who they are and the things that they like to do. That’s life. But one of the fascinating things is, I having those moments and when I’m feeling a little under-resourced too, right? Is that they want their autonomy, they want to do the thing, well then they can go and do it, right? So it’s thinking about autonomy versus independence. We can easily make that little quick connection. That autonomy means doing it themselves. If they want to make that choice, then they can do it. It’s their responsibility to follow through and do the thing then. But yeah, autonomy and independence are very different things. We don’t need to have the expectation that they can independently do the things that they’re wanting to do. If we are wanting to them in pursuing their interests and learning about their interests and learning about themselves. It is for us to help them do the things. And the lovely thing is, when we’re there with them, we can help them process, right? They have someone to talk to about this. They don’t feel judged about saying, I really wanted to come do this thing and we’ve been here a half hour and I really want to go home now because this is not what I expected. Verses it’s not okay. You wanted to come here, so we’re coming here for the whole thing. I love the word interdependence. We are helping them explore the things that they’re interested in and as we talked about last time, weaving our lives together, we are all wanting to do the things and it’s about all of us. Everyone’s consent, everyone’s autonomy, and weaving together the things that we’re wanting to do, not wanting to do, and finding a way as much as we can, and without that pressure of time. So maybe if there is something that I want to do but it doesn’t fit right now. Is it okay if it’s tomorrow? Often it can be, there isn’t an emergency. And that perspective also comes with experience. So, sometimes things feel super urgent for our kids and we can understand that. And help them gain those moments because that’s something that will come with time too. But anyway, yeah, autonomy and independence are completely different.  ANNA: Very different things. I know we have a podcast on the independence agenda, and I think it’s important to revisit that too, to recognize that there is really a difference. I think consent weaves in, so it’s so interesting how they’re all so interrelated and how different it feels to have that interdependence than to have either an independence agenda or this control. The control paradigm of a parent telling a child what to do. I had a client that was recently sharing a story that I think is related, so I’m going to go for it for just a second. She has a strong independence agenda that we talk about a lot. And I was like, tell me where that came from. What comes to mind from when you were younger?  And she shared a story of how they were very young children and they were told they had to go rake the whole yard. They had this giant yard and they had to rake the whole yard, two young children. And then the parents came out and it wasn’t good enough and said, you’ll do it again. This was even though it had taken them hours to do. And they were just so devastated and had to do this again. And she’s said, but you know, I guess we learned we just have to do it right the first time and that it was just on us. I said, what would it have felt like if they had come out and said, oh, you know what, there’s still some leaves here let’s all get them up together.  She just stopped for a second and said, I think I would’ve felt really loved and like I’m not alone. Because that’s the thing, right? What are we valuing? And again, this is may be a ‘people are different’ thing too, but what are the values? We’ve talked about this before. Maybe independence is a value. But I think it’s worth examining, are there unintended consequences to when we’re putting that on someone else? I think we can want our own independence. We can want our own autonomy, but when we’re deciding for someone else that that’s what they need, that’s where we’re pushing through consent, potentially. That’s where we’re potentially changing the relationship. And so I think it’s also valuable to just slow down, dig in a little bit and see, does this really align with what I’m feeling inside? Or am I just repeating outside messages and then putting it on the kids in front of me? ERIKA: It’s where the agenda becomes more important than anything else. But is that really what we want? Or is that again, this role of the good parent that we’re trying to fill? I think that’s super interesting. And then I was also thinking, just a note for the parents of young children. I feel like this consent and autonomy can be the most challenging during those very young years because a lot of the big reactions that toddlers and little kids can have about things don’t feel logical at all. That was a challenge for me, and I see it being a challenge for a lot of parents with little kids. I clearly see what’s going on and they’re having this big reaction that doesn’t really make any sense logically to an adult mind. And so I don’t know. I don’t particularly have advice, but I’m just thinking, solidarity with the parents of young children. And then also, for a young child, these big feelings are real. And so I think giving the space for them to have them, taking them seriously,that’s the biggest thing you can do. Because it’s the worst feeling to have a big emotion about something, which I still do have big emotions about some things. And then to have someone say. You don’t feel like that. You don’t need to feel like that. You shouldn’t feel like that.  It’s so invalidating. And so, doing this work of listening, leaving space, and letting even the littlest kids have their feelings and not pushing through that, I think is such amazing work. ANNA: Right, because I want to say that, because I have that logical brain too, and it can be hard, why are we freaking out about the blue sippy cup versus the pink sippy cup? Can we just want a sippy cup? But what I found is that when I could check that and go, okay, but what’s really happening here? It is a big emotion about something. And oftentimes there are contextual pieces or you know, HALT They’re hungry, they’re angry, they’re lonely, they’re tired. Something else that’s going on, something else at play. And so when we can really hear, and validate that you want this particular blue sippy cup, we need to find it and clean it, even though we have 20 other sippy cups right here. You see that energy comes down because if we stay in our place of, we’re going to out logic over the 2-year-old, it’s not a winning proposition. It’s just going to, things are just going to escalate. But like you said, we can see it as adults too. It’s like someone telling us, well that’s not logical for you to be upset about this thing or anxious about this thing, or worried about this thing. That doesn’t feel connecting and it doesn’t  help you go, okay, well yeah, I’m not going to worry about it now because you told me not to. ERIKA: Yeah. Oh my gosh. So I’m just thinking, there could be a lot of times when I’m at a heightened emotion and so if we are moving forward with this plan that I’m feeling scared about or upset about, and we’re going to do it anyway, it feels like my consent is not being respected in that moment. But really all it would take is for someone to hear my concerns. Let’s talk through my concerns, validate that it’s okay, that I’m feeling the way that I feel. Then maybe I really am okay moving forward. I just needed to be heard first. And so with consent, I think sometimes it can happen where we think my kid doesn’t want to do this, so I guess we can’t do it. And then that’s the end of the conversation. Rather than, my kid doesn’t want to do this. Let’s get curious. What are the reasons? Let’s try to figure it out. Let’s validate. Problem solve, be creative, and then maybe the event actually does happen because everyone feels heard and we’re able to figure out a way that it actually feels okay. PAM: Yeah, I think those conversations are the most interesting because again, as we’ve talked about so much, it’s not about having the outcome in mind. It really is understanding the context for each person. If something somebody super does or super doesn’t want to do, that is part of the context of the conversation. I can say, yeah, well this was interesting to me, but I’m not super committed and it doesn’t matter per se. and then if I am super committed, then we get curious, we talk about what it is that they’re uncomfortable with or imagining or envisioning, just so that we can get a clearer picture of what it’s going to be and see if there’s a way to mesh them together.  And then if we don’t find that way, then look for other ways, can somebody else come and stay with them? Can they stay on their own? Depending on their age. There are so many possibilities when we take our mind off the tunnel of this one initial outcome that we saw as the initial path. And we discover there are so many ways. So many times over the years I found new ways to get to something with my kids because they’ve had these really cool ideas. ANNA: Right, and we’re not having to give up something. I think this really does relate back to the other podcasts we’ve done, but it also relates to what you said at the top of this show, Erika, which is, the holidays are a good example and things where we don’t have to give up what we want to understand what’s happening for everyone. But it again, if we tunnel in on this one outcome, okay, we’re all going to march into family dinner and we’re going to sit there and it’s going to look like this because that’s what we do. That may not work. But when we get to each individual’s preferences, hey, I like talking to this person. I like seeing the tree. I like looking at the lights.I like talking to grandma. I like playing the card game.  Then we can figure out how we can do those things. So it’s not about giving up what we are wanting to do, to honor someone’s consent. It’s really about just weaving all of it together. And again, with very young children, it’s sometimes just giving them space for those big emotions. And being playful about it. I’m thinking of leaving the park at the playground. That can be hard, you know? And then instead of thinking, okay, I’m going to have to drag them to the car, or are we going to stay here for the rest of our lives because they don’t want to leave. There’s a middle ground of letting them have that emotion and validating. You don’t want to leave, we’ve had so much fun! We would always race to the tree and race to the other tree and we’d be working our way closer to the car or piggybacks to the car or things like that, just recognize that some transitions are harder for some kids. And I think you said this Erika earlier, and Pam, this is where the learning is. This is where we’re learning about each other. It’s hard to leave something where we’re having fun or it’s hard to leave something that we’re engaged in. That doesn’t mean we can never do it. It just means that we’re taking time to be heard and seen and it just feels so different. It just really feels so different and so connected. And again, I believe that then that is what ripples out into the world because now they have this template of,  it’s really nice to feel seen and heard and I want to see and hear the people in my life. ERIKA: And ing that everybody’s differences are okay and that’s just so amazing in a family, not writing the story that, oh, because you know, my kid doesn’t want to be in this crowded family event, means they don’t care about family, or they don’t like family traditions or, some big story when it’s really just, it’s a lot of stimulation or it’s a lot of people trying to talk to you and it’s overwhelming. And so, just leaving space for everyone to be themselves. It’s kind of great.  Well, this has been so much fun and we hope you enjoyed our conversation and maybe had an aha moment like I did, or picked up some ideas to consider on your own unschooling journey. And if you enjoy these kinds of conversations, I think you would love the Living Joyfully Network. It’s such an amazing group of people connecting and having thoughtful conversations about all the things we encounter in our unschooling lives. You can learn more at living joyfully.ca/network or on livingjoyfullyshop.com, and we hope to meet you there. Thanks for listening, and we will see you next time. Bye bye!

We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and we’re talking about weaving in our needs. When we first come to unschooling, it’s common to start questioning the traditional roles of parent and child. Maybe we go from seeing adult needs as the priority and then we swing on the pendulum over to meeting all of our children’s needs as the priority and let ours fall by the wayside. But eventually, ignoring our own needs is a recipe for burnout and resentment. We can work to incorporate everyone’s needs into the family conversation, because we are all different and all of our needs matter. This was a really fun conversation and we hope you find it helpful on your unschooling journey! THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE Blog post – Are You Playing the Role of Mother? The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, coaching, and more! The Living Joyfully Network Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram. Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling. Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling? We invite you to us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about ing our children’s autonomy. Come and be part of the conversation! So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT PAM: Hello, I am Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully, and today I’m ed by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. Hi to you both. We are going to be diving into another unschooling stumbling block today, which is weaving our needs into our days. And I think this is a big one. I this one. And while as always, it’s not cut and dried, it is definitely an important part of just living together as a family and noticing overwhelm, hopefully before it becomes burnout. But before we dive in, we want to invite you to us in the Living Joyfully Network. There is just so much value in doing that deep personal work that the unschooling journey asks of us in community, because while everyone’s journey is definitely unique, we all face similar obstacles and challenges and stumbling blocks, and that’s where the power of community shines. In the network, you can learn from the experiences of other unschooling parents. Draw inspiration from their aha moments, gain insights from the unique and creative ways that they navigate both their own and their family’s day-to-Day needs. It is a conversation that comes up very regularly. To learn more and us, just follow the link in the show notes or go to living joyfully shop.com and click on community in the menu. Now, Anna, would you like to get us started? ANNA: I would, I’m glad we’re talking about this because you’re right. I think it’s an important understanding and really it’s a paradigm shift when we’re moving to unschooling or more connection-focused parenting, because typically we’re a very adult focused world. The needs of adults tend to get the most attention, and kids are kind of along for the ride. We hear things like, they can adjust and then their resilience is praised and adults know best anyway. And all of these kinds of pieces that we’ve all steeped in and heard in our own childhood. But once you open your mind and heart to really seeing children as fully formed humans on their own journey, it brings everything into question. We start to see how often kids are discounted, how their feelings are dismissed, and how they aren’t trusted to know themselves. Letting go of those ideas and seeing children as capable and trustworthy, it’s beautiful. It’s a powerful shift along the journey to prioritizing connection and ing autonomy.  I do think we have to be careful because while it’s great to notice and correct for this power imbalance, we don’t need to tip too far the other way because we’re still imbalanced. We’re still actually in that whole power paradigm, it’s just another person feeling disempowered. So sometimes, that pendulum swing to the other side is necessary to find the center ground that honors all the parties involved. But we don’t need to hang out there too long. And recognizing we’re hanging out there, I think, can be really important to making that shift to everyone’s needs being valued, because when we find the center, we realize that everyone can have their needs met. It’s not a race, it’s not a competition. We can create an environment grounded in trust and understanding that all of our needs are valid and together we can find a way. I feel like there are a lot of aspects to dig into, but I’m going to stop here. And Erika, we’ll go to you. What bubbled up for you when you were thinking about this idea? ERIKA: Yeah, I really saw that same pendulum swing idea when I was reading about this topic as well, because as we’re growing up, we don’t have any power. We can’t wait to be an adult because then finally we get to make our own decisions. Our needs will finally be important. We’ll finally get our say. And so it could be natural to step into parenthood with that view of, now, finally, I’m in charge. My needs are the most important. And then when we start to notice how different our children are from us, how much they already know about themselves, and if we’re curious about giving them their autonomy, I do think it can be a huge pendulum swing to, oh my gosh, I’m just going to all of their needs all the time, and I’ll just forget about mine because I’m an adult. I can handle it. So, I do think that can be a recipe for that kind of martyrdom and resentment that can start to come up where we think, I do everything for them and I never get to meet any of my needs. And that really is not the goal of unschooling, to have that feeling that I never meet my own needs. And so I do think this is a paradigm shift to, we are all humans. We all have needs and we all can get our needs met in this kind of community, in this family. And so, it’s kind of revolutionary and I think it’s a journey to get from, I’m the boss to, my kids are the boss to wait a second, there is no boss. We’re all working together. And it’s just so valuable once you can get to that place. PAM: I do love that there’s just the imagery of the paradigm and the pendulum swing. Right? And I encourage people to use such loving language for themselves, right? Not like, oh crap, I went too far, or I’m not doing enough. The way we are using it as something that we’re recognizing, using it as a clue. Oh, okay. This is something that I want to think a little bit more about, that I want to consider some more. That’s one of the things we love about this podcast is just sharing some observations and some stumbling blocks that we have seen along the way that people kind of bump into, stumble over, that are great clues that there’s something more that you can consider here. And as you guys were talking, something that bubbled up for me, another consideration as we’re trying. I swung really far and I am quite happy with ing my kids and everything, but I’m starting to feel overwhelmed. I’m starting to feel like nobody hears me, nobody considers me. I am feeling exhausted, maybe a little bit mildly, like all those pieces, and I want to come and find a way to bring my needs into the conversation. One thing that I think is really important or valuable, helpful to consider at that point is the idea of fairness, because bringing our needs back into the conversation doesn’t mean, well, I did three things for you, so now I get to do three things for me. That’s another layer that’s just going to interfere with figuring things out. Because now I need to start thinking about, what are my needs? And then you’re thinking about expectations. You’re thinking about those societal conversations like, is it that I need to go to the spa once a month? But no, it can be, what is it that I actually need? What is it in this particular situation? What is more fundamentally my personality, that I feel like I’ve been dampening? What do I need to bring into the conversation in an ongoing way? Is it certain situations or environments or places that trigger something for me? We talk quite a bit about narrating, that’s where that can start to be helpful in sharing. So it’s not that I need to bring my needs to the table all the time. It may be that I’m just sharing these pieces of me, so that other people get to learn a bit more about me. Because if I’m just taking care of everybody else’s needs, nobody’s learning much about me, right? That is part of starting to bring things in but not like tit for tat I did this, now you get to do this. It really has so much to do with people are different and what our fundamental needs are and seasons because there are seasons where somebody might have a heavier load of needs for a while, right? And it’s not wrong to consider that and make choices with that in mind as well. There’s just so much in there, isn’t it? ANNA: There’s so much and I love that because fair is not equal. So, watch for those kinds of old tropes that we can bring in, that can end up again being a disconnect. But I actually think that one of the first steps for us in this process is to really tune in and understand what our needs are, be able to articulate them because if we think back and we were children in an environment where our needs were not valued or really taken into consideration as much,how we didn’t even learn to express them. And so what can tend to happen is that it builds up, it builds up, it builds up. This is regardless of unschooling, and then it comes out as this explosion of you’re not helping me or nobody’s hearing me because maybe that’s what it sometimes took in childhood, the big explosion to get the attention. And so what I love about this is it’s just this time for introspection and learning more self-awareness.  And recognizing this is niggling a little bit, or this isn’t feeling good. Or watching for some pebbles of feeling more tired, or feeling not as engaged and what do those things look like? And then being able to narrate a bit more. I love that you mentioned that because I think it’s so important because that’s how we learn about each other.  And then also, again, just to be able to articulate because that’s what this process looks like when you get further down the road is just everybody being able to, casually without energy, articulate their needs. It doesn’t have to be a blow up. It’s like, Hey, this is what I’m feeling now and this trust that we can develop that these other people care and we’re going to figure it out together. It’s not that it’s one or the other. And so, yeah, I think that’s going to be really interesting. But I do think that’s the first place to go is really, What are my needs and what do they look like?  And I love the piece that you said, Pam, about, don’t borrow your needs from what society’s telling you your needs are. Things like, you need to have date night, you need to go to the spa once a month. You need to do all of this stuff. Maybe, maybe those are things that feel good to you. But those two particular things did not feel good to me, so that wasn’t where my needs were. And so, you really have to shut out the noise to tune in and know yourself. I’m an introvert. I need this time. What does that look like? What fits within the context of my life, where it is now and this season? Which I think is very valid because it changes. We’ve seen lots of seasons over these 20 some years of kids. I love just digging in and learning more about yourself because I feel like sometimes we haven’t really been given that opportunity at all. ERIKA: Right, right. I think that’s why it’s such a big paradigm shift or so challenging in the beginning because we’re not really tuned in. We may be more in the role of parent than tuned in to ourselves as unique individuals and thinking about how people are different. But I just love that as we start narrating, even for ourselves, telling ourselves what we are feeling and what’s going on for us and just recognizing the context of the moment. It’s just so valuable for us to learn about ourselves. And then it’s little clues that our family is learning as well.  If I can start my saying, I didn’t get great sleep. I’m thinking we need to keep meals kind of simple today. That’s a little thing that I can say in the morning that just gives everyone the idea of, okay, we’re not making the lasagna, but then it’s not a big deal. We will do it on another day when I have more energy. But just giving them a heads up about my context and how I’m feeling. And then you’re right, that then everyone else starts to learn or say, okay, I can do that for me too. You know what, I’m feeling really grumpy about this. I am not in the mood for that anymore. The more individuals you have in your family, the more complicated it can get. But even with just my family of four, we all thought we’d be in the mood to do this, and then something comes up, someone’s not feeling good, or someone’s feeling like they need some rest or whatever it is, and so just the more we can talk about that, the more I think everyone’s needs kind of weave together.  And I love that the title of this one is like weaving in our needs. Because that’s what it feels like. It’s not something that we can schedule everything well in advance. Because the context of the moment is what determines what I actually need. PAM: I love that. That’s beautiful. Okay, I’m going to try and the two things that bubbled. Number one in us not even often recognizing our needs at first. And knowing there’s a need and meeting a need, those are two separate things, but I think something we’ve been talking about in the network lately, is our kids as our guides, and I was thinking of the pendulum swing and not being hard on ourselves if we have swung really far. And I love just that whole power paradigm thing. But if we swung there, I think our kids can be great examples of sharing what they need. Right? So they will tell you, I don’t want to do that, or I need to do this, I need to do this. The language depends on their age and all that kind of stuff and personalities. But I feel like often they are just more grounded in knowing in the moment what their need is. So sometimes they are just a great example to look to and just say, well, if they can express it, maybe I can express it. Ooh, they know what they’re needing in this moment, and we see the context of the moment too. And that’s all interesting fodder that we can use to think. And for ourselves, like we were saying to even discover what our need is, there may be a moment where we’re feeling off. We’re feeling a little gnarly. It’s like, oh, is that low energy? Is that because what I’m being asked to do is something I don’t really like to do? There could be so many reasons why we’re feeling off in that moment, and it is so worth understanding because we can’t meet that need until we really understand what it is. If we think it’s because we’re exhausted and we get more rest, et cetera, and then it still bothers us next time. We can keep exploring. Try things, play with things, but what we’re doing is learning about ourselves and that increased self-awareness is so helpful.  And I too love the weaving in our needs because truly, like you were saying, Erika, we can’t know ahead. We can in general know that we enjoy things and they will fill our cup, et cetera,  and so we can try and find work time, making space and time to do those things. But it doesn’t mean that until that thing happens, I just have to grin and bear it right until the next time I can go to the coffee shop with my friend. And again, there’s zero judgment on whatever refills our cup or that we enjoy in the moment, anything that brings us energy. But it’s funny at what actually works for us as an individual and then finding ways to weave it into the little things even into our days, whether we have younger kids, older kids, etc. Maybe somebody’s going through something and there’s lots of heavy conversations. In those times, even especially, it’s important to weave little bits of meeting our needs, little bits of self care, like all those pieces in. And so to not put all this pressure on these bigger things to meet our needs, but rather notice, what if I have my favorite tea or if I go for a walk around the house or if I read two pages of my book? What are the things that just help you ground and recenter and feel a little bit cared for, and then you can share that with the people around. I’m going to go sit and read my book for 10 minutes, then I’ll come and help you with this thing. It’s those narrating pieces.  Because when you weave it into your day, it’s like an ongoing thing of value, versus, you can do all you want to me, I will do everything. And then once a month I get to go off and do my own thing. That really doesn’t work long term, and really doesn’t help them understand the other person. And the message is they need a break from us. Because we’re a lot.  But then of course when we’re there, it’s almost like they need more, right? Because it’s like, okay, well I know that they’re there for me. I’ll get them to do all the things. because then they’ll get their escape. It’s just like a different message than just weaving in our needs ANNA: It’s a very different message. And it was funny because I just jotted the note in front of me while Erika was talking. The pressure that it puts on that time. If it’s going to be this time away. Or this thing, where everything has to be perfect, right? We feel this tension about making it the best we can because it’s going to be the thing that has to refill our cup. And what we’ve learned so much and talked about so much in the network is that it really is those little moments that actually do so much more for our nervous system and for our ability to be present.  And what you just said, Pam, was important to me. I didn’t want that to be the message, that I need a break from you because that seems to put some kind of responsibility on them too, that they’re too much or there’s something wrong and it’s like, no, I need to figure out how to take care of my needs. And so switching gears just a tiny bit, going to the practical, I think one of the things that helps with this is to not have that specific outcome in mind. So not thinking that self-care looks like this, or meeting my needs looks like that. So if we take even a specific need, you know, it’s like, okay, there’s different ways to meet that. This is one you and I have talked about before, Pam, but we both liked writing, and in my head, writing before I had kids was a long block of time with nobody around me. Often it was late at night and it was quiet time and the house was quiet or the apartment was quiet. Then I had kids and that time didn’t exist. There was a part of me that thought, I guess I’m not writing anymore, or that’s not going to be a part of my life anymore. But it’s opening to actually, what can I do? And it ended up being shorter articles or different things or journaling and I realized, I can fit this in. But when I was so fixated on it had to look this one way. I ended up feeling disappointed. I probably had an energy about it. It didn’t feel good. And so really letting go of the specific outcome to get into what is it that I enjoy about the particular thing, whatever it is, what is it about it that feeds me? What is it that I really enjoy? And so for me, it’s playing around, intellectual thought, thinking and putting something down on paper and being able to explain something in a way that makes sense to me and to other people, that’s really fun for me. And so, okay, I can still do that. And so I think that’s a practical piece of it, is to really watch for those set outcomes so that you can get more creative.  That’s what I love about this process when we’re involving everyone, we’re creating this climate of being creative and solving for these different needs in different ways. And you see it play out with every member of the family, and that gets pretty fun.  PAM: Can I jump in for a second? Because what bubbled up for me there too is the value of our environment. So, part of it is figuring out what was it that I liked about the thing. Because I’m like, oh, okay. I really enjoyed this thing. And it was writing for me too, that was a big one. And then it’s like, okay, but what is it that I enjoy? I’m all disappointed because I can’t make it look the way I feel like it needs to look for me. But once I can move through. Then let’s be a little bit curious, a little bit creative. Let’s brainstorm some ways. And for me, it’s useful to brainstorm as in specifically not discounting every idea I have immediately, before I start to process and discount things. I like to have, I don’t know, at least 10 or 20 ideas in front of me because then they run the gamut, right? That just kind of breaks the ice for me. I really want it to look this one way. So, that is super helpful for me, the brainstorming piece. Then thinking this way might work. And then it’s setting up my environment to make it as easy as possible for me to pop into that. Because typically, especially with younger kids, but having kids, your pockets are typically smaller. Like you were saying, late at night or early in the morning while everybody’s sleeping. I you talked about Anna, about having your guitar close by. And I would have my headphones and I had my desk. One of my ideas was I’ll just put my desk downstairs and people will know where I am and they can come. But, oh my gosh, after about a week, that did not feel good. To me, it just felt two separate, too disconnected. So then I popped it up in the middle of the house where everybody was going to be wandering by, and I had some headphones, right? That way, I wasn’t distracted by every little noise that I heard of somebody playing or whatever, whatever. But they could easily talk to me, they would see me. I would see them walking by and they could grab my attention easily if need be. What we’re doing is sharing our needs. Just by the fact that we’re setting up our environment. If you want to go write for half an hour, because I know I’m going to be playing away. Our family, our kids want to us. In the seasons that they can when their needs aren’t heightened or anything, but when they know and when we’re setting up our environment for that it’s obvious, right? And they’ve got their toys out, they’ve got their things all over the place. Our things can be part of the family too. And then it’s just all of us weaving throughout the day doing the things we want, coming together, splitting apart, maybe a couple over here, just weaving our days together to meet those. And you know, we feel more seen and heard when our things that we like to do are actually seen by the people and appreciated. Not that we expect them to do them with us or have the same interest, but we can all appreciate everyone’s interests, understanding that we all have things that we like to do. That makes sense. ERIKA: Anna, when you were bringing up the creativity, it was funny because the note I had written that I wanted to talk about next is that, the creativity that I think this requires in order to meet four people’s needs in a family. We have to be creative about what that can look like. And it can’t just be one person with the vision of what it should look like with all the ideas and then everyone just follows along, because that isn’t everyone getting their own needs met. And so I think when we talk about everyone’s different needs and meeting them, one thing that can be a stumbling block too, is just the feeling of well, my need is for you to do this. And so, when we start labeling that our need is for people to do something differently or something for us, then we’re losing the point of the need. Iit is my need and maybe there are people who can help me meet my needs but we can be creative and figure out a way that works for everyone. That’s not my need, if it is requiring you to do this. I forget what we call that, but basically like it can go from talking about needs to really just trying to control everyone to make the environment the way that feels the most comfortable to us, you know? And so if my need is for quiet, my answer could be for everyone to be quiet. But really, if I’m creative and if we come up with a family solution that works for everyone, it might not be that they’re quiet. It might be that I find a different place to be or headphones like you’re talking about before. There’s lots of different options. Once we can open up to creative problem solving, rather than just going in with, my need is for you to not need me right now, or whatever might come up in our heads. ANNA: But I think that’s about not really being able to articulate our needs, not really understanding the process of what our need is and that we’re responsible for it. And I think that’s a practice thing, you know? I think that really, that’s almost that little red flag or reminder that I still have some more work to do to figure out what my actual need here is. Because if it’s to control other people and that’s going to make me happy, you’ll find that that’s a slippery slope that doesn’t really end up working out like you think it will.  But when we can be real clear about what’s happening, we start to see other options. I think also what’s important about that piece is when we put it on someone else, we can be met with defensiveness or it sets up a dynamic that doesn’t feel as good. But when I can say, gosh, my head is hurting and I just feel like I need quiet right now because it’s just been such a long day. Then they’re more inclined to say. Oh, I want to help you with that. I can see that you’re hurting or that that doesn’t feel good, but if I’m like, you are too loud, you need to quiet down without giving information about what’s happening for me, then it becomes, okay, wait, you’re saying there’s something wrong with me. You’re saying that I’m doing something wrong or bad, and it creates that defensiveness, or either shame depending on the personality and the child. So just that extra step to really own it is so important. But I think we don’t do that because we haven’t felt our needs were valid. So, it’s a hard place to go to say, is this need of mind for quiet valid? It’s almost easier to lash out with more of an anger or control piece because that may be what we’re used to seeing. So it’s  cool to unpack that and see what’s really happening there? ERIKA: Yeah, that was just making me think that it’s part of the pendulum swing too. When we get too far over, now the kids are having most of, or all of their needs met and we’re ignoring ourselves and trying not to have needs. Then we get that agitation and resentment and then it comes out as, you guys need to do this, you need to stop doing that. Stop being loud, go to sleep, all these things. I think it’s just kind of getting into that more middle spot on the pendulum where it’s not about controlling the other person, but I’ve been resourcing myself enough that I’m not having those explosions of everyone here needs to change what they’re doing because I have a need right now. PAM: So often those explosions are out of the blue to them, right? Because we’re trying to hold it back, hold it back, hold it back, and then it just comes bubbling out and they’re like, what the heck? We’ve been doing this for 30 minutes and now all of a sudden it’s bothering you. And then if we don’t give the context, it’s like, oh, is it about me? There’s just so many mixed messages that can happen there. And yeah, let’s get back to that pendulum swing, and I think what can be really helpful. What I found helpful is as I’m trying to explore and find that middle rhythm, it really was as I’m trying to figure out my needs, it really was bringing that playful attitude to them because it’s like, okay, I think this is my need, and I think something like this will help.  And then we have that conversation. And like you’re saying, not with a specific outcome, but with understanding. Do you have any ideas on how this can help? That doesn’t mean that’s an answer forever. Whenever we find ourselves in that same situation, like you said,  we just may discover, oh, you know what? That didn’t really help as much as I thought it would. I don’t feel as resourced. I don’t feel like my need was met. Oh, maybe I hadn’t identified it quite yet, but we’ll be sitting there stewing for ages forever trying, if we wait until we are sure we’ve got to the root of our need. It’s okay to play with it a bit and to bring that lighter energy to it because it is just so much easier to have a conversation about this with someone who is energetically lighter because when the conversation’s heavy, it can feel like it’s a yes or a no kind of thing. It doesn’t feel like a brainstorming conversation where everybody’s going to be heard and considered. It’s more of an energy okay, we can keep sharing ideas, but until they match the idea you have in your head, you’re not going to agree to it anyway. So why bother having that? ANNA: That’s my mother-in-law. She keeps asking the question until she gets the answer she wants. So yes, and it’s hard and you can see where she’s coming from, but it’s so hard to have that discussion because it’s not a back and forth. It’s not a, how are you feeling about this? What can we do? There isn’t creativity to it.  It really can feel fun when we are just figuring it out and sometimes it’s hard. Sometimes there’s high emotions because people are feeling very attached to what they need to do in that moment, or the timelines feel pinched or tight, but there is just this underlying trust of, even if it’s hard in this moment we’re going to figure it out. We’re going to keep at it. We’re going to stretch the timeline sometimes because sometimes we can’t do everything in one moment, but we can do it over a series of time.  I think sometimes for our needs too, looking at the seasons is important and maybe there’s something I’m interested in doing that doesn’t fit this season, but what else could give me a great feeling or could be fun or stimulating for me that does fit into this season? So it’s not over attaching to one particular way. That’s what I think you’re talking about Pam. The playfulness and creativity comes into play. And again, that being modeled, that happens for everyone. So, then if you had a child that’s focused on doing this one thing with that as the culture, they may be able to say, okay, I really want to do that, but I guess I can wait till Saturday  when we have more time or your partner’s here, and let’s do this other thing now.  And because they know we’re going to follow up, we’re going to find a way to do it. And we want to do that for ourselves as well. Just know that we’re not going to keep stuffing the needs down. We’re going to keep looking and finding those creative ways that fit in our family at this time. ERIKA: I just want to bring it back one more time to make sure that we’re really digging down though to know that this is our need and not the role of the mom that I’m supposed to be or whatever other kind of external things we might have. Because I think it could be super distracting to be like, I need to be doing these million things in December to get ready for the holidays because that’s what a good mom would do or whatever kind of ideas we might have in our minds.  So really tuning into, what do I really love? What do I really like? What really fills me up? And then encouraging everyone else in the family to do the same. That’s when we really get to the real needs.  PAM: The why behind it. I think that helps. I will to link in the show notes, I have a blog post called, Are You Playing the Role of Mother? It kind of digs into that. It’s really interesting stuff to think about. I love that. All right! Thank you so much for ing us, everyone. We hope you enjoyed our conversation around the value and the importance and the playfulness of weaving our needs into our family’s conversation. And if that’s whet your appetite to explore it more deeply, we invite you to us in the Living Joyfully network. Imagine no longer feeling so alone in your family’s choices. Imagine being part of a group of like-minded individuals who acknowledge and encourage, and encourage you as we walk alongside each other on this amazing journey. We are so excited to welcome you. To learn more and us. Just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on community in the menu. And wishing everyone a lovely day. Bye! ERIKA: Bye! ANNA: Take care!

In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika dive into ing our children’s inner voices. External messages and cultural roles can disconnect us from our internal wisdom and knowing. Our unschooling lives give us an opportunity to provide time and space for our children to really tune into their inner voices, and showing them that we are curious about their opinions and letting them know that they know best about themselves can lead to increased self awareness and stronger relationships. We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships! THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more! We invite you to us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation! Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling? Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram. Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling. So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ANNA: Hello, I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully, and today I’m ed by my co-hosts, Pam Larrichia and Erika Ellis. Before we get started, I wanted to encourage you to check out the shop where you can find books, courses, coaching, and information about the Living Joyfully Network. The shop has resources and for every stage of your journey. You can find the link in the show notes, or you can visit livingjoyfullyshop.com. Today we’re going to be talking about allowing space for our children to cultivate their own inner voice. Erika, would you like to get us started?  ERIKA: I would love to. This is fun because I know that I have mentioned my own children’s inner voices many times on the podcast before, and I think cultivating the space for them to tune into those inner voices is one of the most important things that I can do as a parent. So when we talk about our inner voice or our children’s inner voices, I think it really relates to the idea that people are different, which is something we’re always mentioning. Our thoughts and our feelings, our bodily sensations and so much more, are unique to us individually. And so, the inner voice is messages from our thoughts, our feelings, and our bodies that tell us what feels good to us, what works well for us, what makes sense for us. It could be described as our intuition or our gut, like the phrase, listen to your gut or our heart, like the phrase, follow your heart. But the key I think, to all of these is that it’s so internal. It’s unique to us as individuals and no one else can know what our inner voice is saying, but us. And so, if as parents, we’re constantly telling our children what they should feel and think, or implying that there’s a right way to feel and think about things, our children can become disconnected from what they feel and think for themselves. And I think it’s a pretty common experience in school to kind of lose touch with that inner voice because there are just so many external voices telling children what to do and what is best and what is right. And so, when we’re talking about unschooling, that is one of the really valuable things I think that we can offer our children is that space and time to cultivate that inner knowing and really encourage them to tune into that inner voice, reassure them that everyone’s experience is different and that they’re the ones who truly know themselves deeply. And I think having someone there who really believes in their ability to make decisions and believes that they can tune into what works for them, is just super empowering for children as they grow and learn. So, I’m excited to talk about this. PAM: I’m thinking back to when the kids came home from school we were together all the time. When I think about this, the skill I had to learn and really embrace was patience. They left school, so they had that environment. I had relatively recently left work, all those outer voices were strong. So to have the patience to hold this space for all of us to actually see what bubbles up for us. I mean, it was hard and it was the most amazing and revealing thing. Over time, wow, it’s amazing where we go when we leave space for this. And also it’s amazing the time that it takes. We were just so used to the busyness and focusing on accomplishing all these things. We want to do this, well, if we want to do this, then we gotta do this, this, this, and this. It’s just so easy to flip into that kind of busyness mode, that accomplishment mode. But to have that patience and hold up that space for everyone, it was life changing. These are human beings. This is how wonderfully we can move through the world when we have that chance to actually see what bubbles up. Listen to our inner voice, just absorb what’s going on and make that next choice moving forward. Even when we’re in the flow. To get into the flow of whatever it is that we’re doing in the moment and just to see where it takes us. It was just very beautiful. ANNA: So many things that I want to say based on what you just said, but I’m going to go in this direction before I lose it, which was, I think a starting point for me was also to learn to listen to my own inner voice. Because I have a belief, I don’t know if it’s true or not true, but I have a belief that our true inner voice doesn’t seek to control others. And so when I would see myself saying, you should do this, you should do that, that was actually a voice outside of myself that I had incorporated as an inner voice. That was the society or from my family or from people outside of me or from school. I was just this vessel to it on to the next generation. And that’s the piece I wanted to be hyper aware of. And when I really started to tune into what’s my inner voice, what is my priority here? Who do I want to be in the world? You all have heard me say that a million times. Who do I want to be in the world? That really changed because then I could share what worked for me, I could share what was happening for me, but it didn’t have that energy or that judgment of what the other person was doing.  So I felt like by me really becoming clear on what my inner voice was telling me, it allowed the space for those around me to hear theirs. And my children never went to school. And so what I saw was that they really led the way for me, right? Because I feel like we all come into the world knowing who we are and what we want to do and how we want to move in that moment. There’s lots of growth ahead. Obviously I’m still growing, but I think we really do have a good sense of ourselves when we come in and that kind of gets chipped away at by various environments or whatever we were exposed to. But I found that they had a strong sense of that. And when I could not be this vessel of society’s ‘have tos’, I learned from them and it just came very naturally. ERIKA: I love that so much. That’s amazing. I feel like a lot of times we may have something that feels like our inner voice. But once we start peeling back the layers, once we start thinking about where did this belief come from? Do I really believe it? There are a lot of these things that were just super ingrained, since childhood, societal messages and so, starting with yourself and starting with, what is my actual inner voice saying? It helps me be curious about everyone else’s and knowing that people are different and everyone’s inner voice is saying something different. And when you said that they start their lives with that strong inner voice, I think that’s so true and it reminds me of “difficult toddlers”, you know, once they start to have their opinions about things and it can be frustrating sometimes for parents. They are thinking they have to try to make them do this thing and they don’t want to do this thing. But if we can trust that they know what works for them and really value learning more about them and being curious about what their inner voice is telling them and taking that seriously, then I think that builds trust. We talked about it recently as well. Just showing them, yes, I care about what your body and your mind is saying about this thing. If you’re feeling unsafe in this situation, if you’re feeling like this is not exciting for you, this is not interesting for you. Any of those things, where kids may be giving us a clear message of, I don’t like this. If we can show them that it matters. Your opinion about this is important and I want to learn more about what’s going on for you in that situation. I think that will just really strengthen the relationship too. PAM: Oh yeah. I think it really, really does. It helps them feel seen and heard. It helps us learn more about them and helps them build trust in themselves. And confidence in themselves. And another thing I wanted to pick up along those lines is when we talk about ing them and helping them listen to their inner voices, that does not mean everything is going to go perfectly. It’s back to that open and curious and to recognizing that we’re learning about ourselves and we’re learning about things. We’re learning about our world, our environment, the people that we live with. It doesn’t mean that everything, that every choice that they make is going to unfold the way they expected, right? That’s  how we are learning more. I thought it was going to go this way. And it really went in a completely different direction. And maybe I’m super not happy about that right now. But it doesn’t mean it’s wrong, and it doesn’t mean that I should have jumped in and stopped them from following that choice or doing that thing, right?  ANNA: That just sparked something to me because also the reverse. So, bear with me. The stakes are a little bit lower when they’re younger, and sometimes we’ll hear people say, well, I pushed them to do the thing they didn’t want to do, and they ended up having fun. They ended up enjoying it. And so, that’s an interesting thing because right. And there’s nothing wrong about that necessarily. But I think it’s interesting when you look at it through this lens because it kind of chips away. And so while you were saying, sometimes they do something and it goes awry, maybe sometimes they make a choice not to go somewhere and they have a regret later, or they think, maybe I would’ve liked that. Or their sibling went and had fun and they feel bad. But that’s learning. That’s them learning about themselves versus thinking, I don’t make good decisions, so someone else needs to make the decision for me. I don’t know what’s best for me, so someone else needs to do it. So it’s not about the mistake, that’s where the learning is. And so if we can, when the stakes are low, really allow that in childhood, they’re building this resilience, this understanding of themselves how to change and pivot when they realize, I wish I’d done that, or I wish I hadn’t done that, or whatever the case might be. We’re giving them an opportunity to learn more about themselves because the stakes get higher, and what I didn’t want is for them to be second guessing those feelings of safety. When the stakes are higher in the future, I really wanted them to tune into that inner voice and if it meant them not going to the event with us, which was probably neither here nor there, if that helped them build that understanding of themselves and that trust in their voice, that worth way more than the show or the photo op or the family Christmas, you know?  And so I think just really looking at this broader picture and bringing this lens to it, thinking about how do we develop an inner voice? How do we develop a strong inner voice that serves us? I think that’s really fascinating when we look at these relationships. ERIKA: Those conversations can be so interesting too. And I’ve had lots of those situations where it feels like there’s something in their inner voice that’s saying they might not be interested in this thing, but it’s not a strong No, it’s a, I don’t really know enough about it. There’s all this nuance to it. So I really feel like if we can go into the conversations without the agenda of, my way’s the right way. I have to try to convince them as hard as I can to do this thing. Then they might be open enough to have conversations where we can ask, what is it about it that feels bad? What is it about it that you are interested in? And just kind of figure out what the pieces are. I might have told this story before, but when we were at this trampoline place, I just had the sense that Oliver would love to jump on the trampoline, but he was standing on the edge and saying he could not do it. And so we just kept watching and looking and I was saying, it looks like you know you’re interested in it or it looks like that might be fun for you. You love jumping, kind of thing. And so in the end he did end up doing it, but it was this whole process of, let me hear the concerns. Let’s talk about what it’s like. Let’s look around and see how safe it seems. And I think in that case it was probably because there were so many other kids there. And so just reassuring him that I was right there and I wouldn’t be leaving. That was the big thing for him at that time. But I wouldn’t have known that necessarily. He could have been scared he was going to get hurt or he could have been worried  about any number of things. And so I think that’s what’s kind of interesting about this is the conversations and what you can learn about, about your kids. PAM: What helped me do that was that patience lens. To just be patient. And as I’ve learned later, not having an agenda. Because the conversations aren’t like that. Those conversations aren’t very fruitful if they feel like they have a leading energy, even if we don’t say the words, because the energy is just so big. It’s not just about the word. So even if we don’t try to convince them, there’s a tone, a rising end to the question. There is just a leading energy when it’s something that we think would be good for them. And the other piece I wanted to mention that I think is so valuable is that we can also feel like at this moment that maybe we’ll never come to a trampoline place again. Like this has to happen now. And the idea, Anna, that there’s plenty of time, your plenty of time mantra, that we have talked about on the podcast before. It’s okay to say no and regret doesn’t mean it was a mistake. This is all just learning. Next time you can make a different choice. Right? And I think that it’s something that’s beautiful for them to bring with them as they get older and situations become a little more nuanced. Situations may have more implications. But there still is plenty of time. A similar choice is probably going to come up again. And what you’re learning from whatever your choice is and however it unfolds, is knowledge you will be able to bring with you. The next time a similar situation arises because it really will. ANNA: Yeah, yeah, for sure. We’ll get lots of chances. I’m going to go back to the trampoline example because I think what’s so beautiful about that is, and I think it can be kind of a litmus test. Is, am I leading them towards an outcome? Am I leading him towards jumping or am I leading him towards understanding himself better? And that was really what you were describing there. So, I just wanted to put words to it because what you were helping him do was tease out the pieces of, this feels scary, or I’m not sure about that. Or what about this? And that’s helping him listen to his inner voice, maybe giving words to some things he might not have experience with. But it wasn’t with the idea that I’m going to talk you into jumping because I know you’re going to like jumping. You saw a little glimmer of, I think he’s interested in this. I want to dig in a little bit more. And I think that’s just that litmus test. Do I have this outcome that I think is best or am I really just giving them, like we’re talking about in this whole episode, space to cultivate that inner voice, listen to it, ask some questions, and move forward no matter what, because maybe that time he wasn’t going to be ready. He wanted to take all that in and next time you’d come back he’d be ready to do the jump. And that would’ve been just fine too. So I love that piece. And I think that’s the nuance of are we leading them towards an outcome we want or are we giving them space to really hear themselves and recognizing that, yes, sometimes, we can all get confused and feel a little nervous about this thing. And then I can talk to somebody that helps me figure out how I’m feeling. So, I think that’s a beautiful nuance. ERIKA: Yes. And that made me think about the conversations that we have really help us. Even just a regular conversation. So maybe not even in that high stakes moment is what I’m thinking about, right? Not when we’re standing on the edge of a trampoline, but when we’re just hanging out, having conversations where we’re showing that people have different feelings and opinions about things. People are different. And really talking to our kids about how people are different. Maybe not even using myself as an example because I know sometimes there’s some weight to that of like, this is what I think is best. Right? And so then kids can be influenced thinking, oh, well mom likes that. But just saying, this guy feels nervous about going off the curb on the street. This other guy climbs up Yosemite with no ropes. So people have different feelings about safety and climbing, things like that. And so then when we’re in places. Where they’re listening to their bodies and listening to themselves about, does this feel safe to me? They have that experience of some people feel really comfortable with this, some people don’t, and that’s okay. How do I feel? And opinions about things too, asking their opinions about things rather than saying, this is good, this is bad. This is what I like, and so therefore you should like it. And I really think it’s a red flag that I’m not listening to their inner voice if I find myself trying really hard to convince them to do something. So, I can recognize that and realize that I have a bit of an expectation. I’m just hoping that they’ll like this thing, that I have stopped listening to what their real opinions are about it. PAM: I think that is super, super valuable because it does not help to put expectations of perfection on ourselves, right? It’s like, what are the clues that, for me, I might be pushing past something that I have the intention of not doing. Who do I want to be? What kind of parent do I want to be? Just noticing even after an interaction. Because things are going to go sideways with our kids. They are going to feel like we pushed them or we were trying to convince them even if we didn’t mean to. But that’s a learning experience for us too. Looking at the exchange.  Did it feel like I kind of tipped over a line? How was I feeling? What was it? What was my capacity? Maybe I’m looking for bigger picture patterns in my life, just to find the clues to help me be the person that I want to be. And I want to be someone who cultivates and s my child listening to and learning their inner voice. I know you’re talking about putting words to their inner voice, because sometimes it’s just a feeling. That’s what processing is. It’s figuring out and putting words to the things that we’re feeling that are bubbling up for us. Maybe our inner voice is trying to communicate with us or trying to just knock on our brain for a moment. So,I think that it is a beautiful thing to be able to look for the little clues in our lives because they are unique to us. People are different again. And what are the little pieces that can help me find a moment to just help myself switch a little bit to be more of the person I want to be in the moment because yeah, it’s never perfect. And to put an expectation on our relationship that things are going to be perfect doesn’t help. That changes our inner voice as well, because all of a sudden trying to meet expectations which are out there or even if they’re expectations we’re putting on ourselves, they’re outside weights that we’re putting on. Right. And that tamps down any inner voices and then we have more work to do.  ANNA: Right. I think that when you have that feeling like you were describing Erika, because we’ve all had it, like I’m pushing a little bit hard here. That’s my cue to ask. where’s that coming from? Because again, I really do believe our inner voice doesn’t seek to control others. I think that’s outside expectations. I think that’s baggage that we’re hearing. And so that’s my first little clue. And that’s why I say ‘there’s plenty of time’ all the time because it slows me down. If there’s plenty of time for them to try this thing, do this thing, I can slow down and tease apart what are the expectations I’m bringing to it, what kind of outside voices are influencing me in this moment? And so ing there is plenty of time is key for me. You two know, I use it all the time to just slow myself down because I can just get on a track and I really do miss the little cues from the people around me.  ERIKA: And I feel like it’s even harder to that there’s plenty of time if the decisions feel more intense, maybe things related to their health or things about food or if they’re having an interest that feels scary to us. These more activating moments with our kids where it feels like if I can’t convince them that I know what’s right, things might just go off the rails. Even in those times, there’s plenty of time is super helpful. And ing that their inner voice applies to things like their body’s health and what they should eat and what they’re interested in. All of those things too. And people are different in those areas as well. And so if we can just still keep some of that open, curious mindset, even in those heavier weighted areas that we may feel like we have super strong beliefs about. That’s just going to help them feel ed and know that they can trust us to do this processing and figure out what works for them. PAM: For me, that’s what it boils down to. That patience lens was so helpful. Plenty of time is helpful. Being open and curious helps me with patience. All those ideas just weave together for me when it comes to helping each person listen to, hear or act from, even if they don’t quite understand their inner voice but to make the choices that feel best in this moment. Within what’s going on for them and what’s going on around them. ANNA: Because I think that creating that environment is part of letting them know there’s plenty of time. You may be getting some mixed messages inside of you. Slow it down and take your time because your body’s going to tell you, you’re going to learn things and it’s okay to try. I’m grateful for this episode because I think it is really something that we all want, we want our kids to listen to their inner voice. But bringing some intention to what it looks like to create that space is really cool. ERIKA: Can I add one more little thing I just thought of?  ANNA: Yes, please!  ERIKA: Okay. So, for those things like health and food and scary interests and things that have weight, but also the expectations of outside people also can feel like a weight. And so one thing that I want to remind myself is that listening to your inner voice is more important than what some outside person is thinking about what you’re doing. As an example, if they’re feeling like there’s too many people in here and that they need to leave, but this is at a family party, to me, it’s more important that they are tuning into that and knowing that they’re feeling overwhelmed and stepping away, rather than worrying about disappointing these other family . And so, really valuing that inner voice development in the kids more than what the outside people are saying. ANNA: And I think something that happens there is we actually give people permission to do that themselves. I definitely would have that with my oldest. I would just frame it like, I love it that she knows herself so well that she needs some space right now. And I mean, invariably somebody would say. I wish I was better at that, or, there are times I want to get out of here and then it becomes light and laughter. Whereas I have absolutely had the feelings you’re talking about there too, where I’m thinking, are we hurting somebody’s feelings? Is the host going to think we don’t like them? But that’s outside, right? My inner voice isn’t trying to control anyone and can share those beautiful connecting pieces. That outside voice is when I’m trying to control all the things. And so it’s just that litmus test. PAM: And those were moments when, over time, where I would just step in and I would just actively share the positive perspective, right? It’s protective of the person who just needs to do whatever it is they need to do. Also, like you were saying, it’s planting that seed that it’s okay. And I’m almost talking to myself when I am talking about how that’s a positive thing and a great thing to do. Like they say, I wish I could and I say, I wish I could. ANNA: Oh my goodness. Okay. As always, so much fun, you two. Thank you both for being here, and thank you to everyone who is listening. We hope you found it helpful on your unschooling journey and just your journey in life in general. And if these kinds of conversations are fun for you, please, please, please us at the Living Joyfully Network. We have so much fun and so many interesting conversations. I get so much out of it every day. I am so grateful for it. We would love to see you there and you can learn more about it in the show notes. You can visit livingjoyfully.ca/network or livingjoyfullyshop.com. We hope to see you there and thanks so much for listening!

In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore the popular maxim known as the Golden Rule, which states, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Once we realize how different people are, however, we can see how treating others how we would like to be treated may fall short in our relationships. We dive into an updated version, “Treat others how they would like to be treated,” which really means learning more about the people we care about. Using this phrase as a guide can serve to deepen our relationships and strengthen our feelings of connection. We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships! THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more! The Living Joyfully Network Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram. Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling. Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling? We invite you to us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation! So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ERIKA: Hello everyone. I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully, and I’m ed by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia. Hello, to you both. And today we’re going to talk about life beyond the Golden Rule. I’m looking forward to diving into this one.  But before we get started, have you visited Living joyfully shop.com lately? Our online shop has Pam’s unschooling books, lots of helpful coaching options and online courses such as Four Pillars of Unschooling, if you’re newer to unschooling and Navigating Conflict, if you’d like ideas to help you navigate conflicts in your relationships. We also have courses on Validation and navigating Unschooling Wobbles at the shop. You can learn more about the Living Joyfully network, as well. We’re excited to be creating a one-stop shop to you along your unschooling journey, and we hope you’ll check it out. And Pam, would you like to get us started about the Golden Rule? PAM: Sure. And to get us all started on the same foot, The Golden Rule is basically – treat others as you would like them to treat you. It’s kind of wrapping it up, and I do think that can be a great start on the journey of exploring and choosing how we treat other people. It’s a reminder to put ourselves in someone else’s shoes to imagine how we’d like to be treated in those circumstances. And that comes with the assumption built into it that we treat ourselves reasonably nicely and then consider doing that instead of reacting more negatively. Right? It is just a nice reminder to treat people nicely, and I think it’s got that nice hook of putting yourself in the situation. What we want to talk about today is taking that next step beyond the golden rule. I think it is to bring in what is becoming one of our mantras. People are different. Because in some situations, even in many situations, the way that I’d like to be treated may be very different from how someone else would like to be treated. I mean, as I was thinking about this, it reminded me of a question you asked recently in the network, Anna, how do you like to be comforted when you’re sad or upset? It’s been so interesting to read the replies to that, right? Because while there are definitely some similarities between the answers, there are definitely some distinct differences and so many nuances. Because we’re real people. So what helps me move beyond the golden rule really is to try to see the situation through their eyes. That’s that next little shift that helps me. So if I was them, what would this look like? What would it feel like? Doing that means considering their personality, their likes, their dislikes, their strengths, the things they find challenging. All those pieces that make up who they are. And then from there, I feel much better equipped to empathize with them, to validate their view of things.  And we’re in that space to share suggestions that are a better fit for them, rather than sharing the things I’d want to do in their shoes. So, it is just that little flip that really helps take it beyond the golden rule of putting myself into everybody else’s shoes and what I would like to happen, so that the world is all about me. And then recognizing that people are different. And in this situation, what does it look like to the other person?  ANNA: I do feel like it’s a great place for people to start, right? Because it’s that idea of being kinder and thinking, how would I want to be treated? And that gives you that little bit of pause, which is always so important. I when I was first thinking about this, which has been, gosh, like 25 years ago now. I switched  it to – treat everyone how they want to be treated. That was my quick around. I love now that we have over the years really gone into what you talk about, Pam, which is again, seeing through their eyes. Because I think whatever visual helps you to really pull back a little bit and understand them. So, wondering, how do they want to be treated? That’s where we can get curious, right? We can think, we are different and we can leave space for what they want in this moment? Because that question was a perfect example from the network. Some wanted to be left alone, some wanted to be held, some wanted to be talked to, some to process. And that’s just with one tiny little thing of how do you like to be comforted in a situation? There’s so many ways of how you want to interact? What kind of jobs do you want? What kind of places do you want to go? How do you like to spend your time? All of these things come into play when we think about how we move through situations differently. And if we are thinking, I want to treat them how I want to be treated, we’re going to miss a lot. And I think it can actually be really disconnecting, which is sad because that’s not the intent behind the golden rule. It isn’t to create a disconnect, but I think if you think about it, it really can. If someone is treating you in the way that they want to  be treated, but it doesn’t feel like they see you or really are honoring you, or know who you are at that moment, it can feel really disconnecting. ERIKA: Oh, I really like that. And, when I was thinking about the intention that a lot of us have, as unschooling parents with our kids and with our families, we really do intend to have this deep connection, these strong relationships. And so if that’s the intention, then we have to go beyond the golden rule to really hearing what the other person likes, what really works for them. Sometimes it’s an easier thing to just be like, well, what would I like in this situation? And then we’ll just assume that’s what everyone likes and just do that. So it may take a little bit more time and digging and curiosity and asking the people, how did it feel when I did that? What would work better for you in that situation? Like that question in the network, How do you like to be comforted is so huge and it reminds me, if I’m sick I want attention and if my husband’s sick he wants to be left alone. And that is just one part of life. This one small thing where if I treat him the way I want to be treated, I would be doting on him all day and giving him a lot of attention and asking him about his symptoms and trying to figure things out. Because that’s what feels better to me.  But if he leaves me alone, which he does, or if I am too  in his business, which I would tend to do for him, it’s like we are missing what actually really feels good to each other. I think I could come up with a million examples of just little differences between me and my kids, me and my husband, where if I were to put myself in their shoes, I’m going to make a completely different decision than they will. PAM: I love that you brought up intention because that’s a really huge piece of it. What is my intention here? That helps me broaden my perspective when I am considering and talking to them and asking them. And we can write stories. If I was putting myself in your shoes, if I’m sick and wanting people to come and ask and to talk about symptoms and to try and help and somebody isn’t coming, we can be telling the story to ourselves that they don’t care. They’re just happy for me to be sick, Versus understanding other people and where they’re coming from. So it doesn’t mean that we’re all perfectly acting. You know what I mean? But it is such a great reminder, even in those moments when we’re literally not connecting and talking to people to understand that the story that we’re writing might not be what’s actually going on. ANNA: Yeah, that’s definitely where I was going. Which is just, then it creates the stories, right? Then we write the story of what it means, but it’s really the same piece in that we’re writing the story of what would that action mean if we were doing it. So what would the action mean of me not checking on you if I were doing it, so if in your case, Erika it might mean that you don’t like the person. You don’t have time for them or whatever. It might be the reason you would ignore someone if they were not feeling well. But for Josh, that’s not at all what he’s thinking.  And I’m more like him in that I just want to be left alone. I like check-ins periodically if I’m super sick. But not a lot of questions and a lot of other things. Because it just feels like weight to me. But that’s what’s so cool about this is you can see just even this little exchange in conversation, we’re learning more about each other and so when we can bring that kind of curiosity to it and no weight about what it means or thinking there’s one right way or any of those pieces, it becomes kind of fun to figure out and ask the questions. And I think sometimes maybe we haven’t been encouraged to ask the questions or to be curious. We kind of had this idea of, okay, a person’s sick, you take care of them in X, Y, Z way. Maybe our parents ed that on to us or we got it from movies or wherever. But isn’t it kind of neat to just say, what do you want when you’re not feeling good? And here’s what I want and here’s what I’ve been thinking about and just opening up more lines of communication to kind of understand these deeper pieces. Because I think sometimes as humans or especially now, we may think that people aren’t interested in those things, but our closest people really are interested and I think if we model that, being interested in them, it really can help. ERIKA: I like rewriting it to, what you were saying, Anna. Try to treat others as they want to be treated themselves. But, right. I think maybe it feels like they would tell me if it wasn’t working for them. You may have to get extra curious and really just check in with the people, which I just think would bring so much to the relationship too. Because that’s the thing that I love about it,  let’s learn more about the people in our lives. It’s just so interesting. And the more that we can just be curious and ask these questions, when I did that, how did it feel? And that may feel like a question that has never been asked in your whole life. And so it may feel a little bit awkward to have conversations like that, but it really is how you figure out more about the people in your lives and the people that you want to be close to. So I think that  kind of a shortcut of the golden rule when you’re just out in public, pushing your shopping cart to the side because that’s what you would like for other people to do. Those kinds of things work. But when it’s these close connections and people that you really want to be close to. Then asking the questions and just checking in and giving them the narration of, when I am having this situation, I love it when other people do this or, I really feel ed when you do this for me. Just to give information. I think it’s just another thing that can help us deepen our relationships. PAM: I really think that helps so much with the connection, the understanding, the empathy, the ability to see through someone else’s eyes more deeply because, we’re guessing, we’re trying. And then you’ve got some who aren’t so much into conversations, so then you’re like trying something and seeing what the reaction, how does that unfold and trying different things. It doesn’t literally need to be conversations, but the exchange of information being open and curious about it, whether you’re looking for clues or you’re asking questions. I think one little thing that was helpful for me was if someone was sick and not feeling well, when someone’s off or it’s a challenging moment, in the actual moment isn’t a great time to have the conversation. But it doesn’t mean we don’t, we can talk about it a little bit later and then to be able to bring that understanding next time. When Rocco’s sick, and he likes to be checked on and I’m more of a, I’ll let you know if I need something. We can make that little joke. It can lighten because, I’m seeing this through your eyes and I want to treat you the way you would like to be treated. And I have the capacity to do this, so it’s a deeper level we were talking about, of those stronger relationships. To be able to even just on a meta level, discuss this depth of understanding we have of the other person and bring that into the conversation as well, because we can also change over time. ANNA: Right. I feel like it might feel more awkward than it is. Because as you all were talking, I was thinking I do tend to like to be left alone in a lot of different situations. But really, I think if someone asked me a question like that, I would feel pretty seen by that. Because it’s not like they’re pushing something on me. They’re asking, Hey, what would feel good to you? Or did this feel okay? Or, this is what I’m thinking or what I like. That would be interesting to me. That would be an interesting conversation. I might not want it to be really, really long. But I think I would feel really seen by that. So it’s interesting to think even when you know you have a child that maybe doesn’t like to have big, long conversations. Sometimes I wonder if that’s because we are kind of inserting our piece into the communication of that conversation maybe a little bit more strongly, and maybe ‘not liking conversations, is a sign we’re not hearing them. We’re not giving them a chance to say what’s happening for them. So, I don’t know. I think it’s interesting to just play with the idea. Again, it’s just learning more about each other and learning more about how we want to have these conversations? Is it better to have some kind of trial and error and do different things? Is it better to have that conversation before or after, or a little bit during, you know, that’s the fun of learning to live with other people and figuring out what makes sense. ERIKA: Yeah, I love that. And it’s kind of inspiring me to maybe ask that question a little bit more often with my kids. Because I think one thing that can happen is, we get in the role of parent or, this is how I’ve always done it. But we know that our kids change as they grow. And so, it totally makes sense to keep checking in. Even if you used to love this, is it still feeling good? Or, I really love when someone does this, how does it feel to you? Just those little curious questions to get to know them better. PAM: Yeah. And I think I really like that perspective of not just like, okay, I know you now, even with other adults, even with your partner, because I know myself, things change over time. The way I like to show up to things, the things that I like to show up for, the things that have kind of run their course and now I’m not really interested in them as much anymore. Just helping other people understand us. And just sharing, like you were talking about narrating there before, Erika. Like just being able to share those little pieces along the way so that we continue to understand and even celebrate those changes. Not make someone feel bad that they have changed. You don’t like that anymore. We used to have so much fun doing that together. I’m going to miss that. Versus really diving into who they are right now. ANNA: Right. We’re making a big deal otherwise. I just thought of an example from my life. So in the early years, everyone that knows me would have said, Anna doesn’t like to hug. Pam, you probably even knew that about me from 25 years ago. It’s interesting, as I did work on my trauma and my pieces, turns out that I do actually like to hug people, especially people that I’m close to or friends with or really in a lot of different environments. But because it was like a thing, people make a big deal about it – wait! You don’t like that! And so, then it’s just like, okay, nope, I don’t like it. Forget it. It doesn’t give me room to change or grow. And so, I think that’s the piece, right? The open and curious piece of not asg, whether it’s how we would see the situation or how we think they would see the situation. Get more information or leave space for it to unfold. And I think that is just worth so much more than just the golden rule and ending there. But I also like what you said too, Erika, just about the golden rule, out in the supermarket. It makes a lot of sense. It’s a very good place to start. I want to be kind to people. I would like them to be kind to me. That feels nice. And then in my closer relationships, in my more intimate relationships, what’s that next step to really deepen that connection and understanding of each other. ERIKA: Well, this has been a lot of fun. I really love this little topic, so I hope you enjoyed our conversation and maybe had an a-ha moment or got some ideas to consider on your own unschooling journey. And if you enjoy these types of conversations, I think you would love the Living Joyfully Network. It’s such an amazing group of people connecting and having thoughtful conversations about all the things we encounter in our unschooling lives. You can learn more at living joyfully.ca/network or on living joyfully shop.com, and we hope to meet you there. So, thanks for listening, and we will see you next time.

In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about navigating disagreements with our partner. No matter how harmonious your relationship, disagreements will inevitably come up between two people. We share some tools that can help us navigate disagreements and give a few examples from our own lives where these have come into play. We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships! THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more! The Living Joyfully Network Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram. Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling. Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling? We invite you to us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation! So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT PAM: Hello, I am Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully, and today I’m ed by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. Welcome to you both! Today we are going to talk about navigating disagreements with our partner because that’s something that happens. We’re different people after all. But before we dive in, we would like to invite you to us in the Living Joyfully Network. There is so much value in doing that deep personal work that the Unschooling journey asks of us in community because while everyone’s journey is definitely unique, we all face similar obstacles and challenges, and I think that’s where the power of community shines because you are no longer alone. You are part of a group of like-minded individuals who are on a similar journey, who acknowledge and encourage you.  As you walk alongside each other you can learn from their experiences, draw inspiration from their aha moments, gain insights from the unique and creative ways they navigate their family’s day-to-day needs and disagreements with their partner. It’s not just about getting answers to your questions. It’s about exchanging ideas, broadening perspectives, and just feeling part of something bigger. One of our , Carolyn shared, “The Living Joyfully Network is truly a global community of strangers who become friends, a group of people who are living intentionally, hearing each other, holding space for one another, ing one another, lifting each other up and inspiring one another.” And, I just got goosebumps again because that’s how I feel when I step into the Network every day. So to learn more and us, just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on community in the menu. And now Anna, would you like to get us started? ANNA: I would! I feel like learning how to navigate disagreements is so important for any relationship because there are going to be times when we don’t see eye to eye and finding ways to express our needs and to really hear the other person is critical to finding mutually agreeable solutions and just living joyfully together.  Not surprisingly, I’m going to start with understanding that people are different. We really see the world differently. We prioritize different things. We have different histories and triggers that show up in different places in our lives. And so when we start there, I think it allows us to not bring defensiveness into the equation when there’s a disagreement. We can be curious like, okay, wow, they’re seeing this really differently than I am, what’s going on? I want to understand, versus they’re seeing this differently, there’s something wrong with me, I’ve done something wrong. This is when we’re making it . And so I think that really understanding differences and getting excited and curious about it is a big, big important first step in this idea of navigating these disagreements. , this is somebody that you love. This is a partner, someone you’ve chosen to spend your life with. And I mean, I want to understand my partner. I want him to feel seen and heard, and you both want to feel comfortable with the decisions you’re making as a family because that just feels better. It just feels better when you can get to that place of understanding each other. And the tools that we talk about so often come into play. Honestly, I’m not even sure if we can cover them all, so maybe we’ll just pick a few really important ones. The first one that really comes to mind for me when we have a disagreement is validation. Because that’s our chance to really hear and to validate what your partner is telling you. And , you do not have to agree with somebody to validate their experience and you don’t have to change your mind to find a solution. Because I think that’s where we dig in. Thinking, I’ve been researching unschooling for years and they don’t know anything and I’m just going to dig my heels in. But we’re missing that nuance of what’s happening for that other person. When we get defensive about it, when we dig our heels in. We don’t have to change our mind to really hear. This is feeling hard for you. This isn’t making sense for you. You’re feeling worried or nervous about this. Validation helps move from that surface level statement to what the underlying needs are, and what I found is that, so often in that space of underlying needs, there’s common ground. We love our kids, we want our kids to feel good and to have a good life. We can find that common ground. And from there then we’re able to move towards, okay, and how do we get to that? How do we navigate all of those pieces? ing that their concerns are a reflection of what’s happening for them. It’s not a commentary or a criticism of you. I think that’s important because it may be reflecting a little bit of disconnection. Maybe your partner happens to work outside of the home and maybe doesn’t have the connection that you have, and so those concerns are a reflection of that. It’s not a commentary about you, it really is just. Oh wow. They don’t see these pieces. I want them to feel safe and comfortable, you know? And so I think just that little bit of shifting your mindset around it and moving to that place of listening and validating really can help the energy of those conversations come down and it becomes this collaboration. ERIKA: Yeah, the defensiveness is the enemy of validation. That’s the thing that just makes it so hard in that moment. So, noticing that defensiveness in myself as a red flag, this is something where something is triggering me with what they’re saying. How can I move through that so that I can validate?  What people bump up against with validation is ideas like, but I know that this is better. I have to try to convince the other person. I have to try to convince my partner because otherwise, it’s all going to go off the rails. I know that this is important and I need to convince, and so, let me convince. I just need to figure out the right thing to say, to convince and defend my way and convince them. It’s just the opposite of validating. But we need to that validation isn’t changing our mind. It’s not giving up. It’s not like now everything’s going to be just how they want it to be. It really is just about lowering the intensity of the conversation, having our partner feel understood and heard, and really being honest about our own vulnerable concerns and worries too. Because I think a lot of times if my husband has a concern about bedtime or whatever and tells me about it, I probably have concerns too. But my reaction is going to be to defend and say we’re doing this right and I know the way. But really if we can both come at it as, okay, I have these concerns too. You have these concerns, this is real, and we are having these fears come up and it’s safe to talk about it. It’s safe to acknowledge you are having fears come up. And just really hearing, and validating means reflecting back what they’re saying and showing that you heard what they said and what they’re feeling. I think it’s about understanding ourselves better, seeing what is a trigger and what’s causing defensiveness in ourselves, and then also knowing that the same thing is happening for them. They’re having their own triggers and having their own things that are being brought up from whatever their past is. I think just being aware that all of that is happening underneath helps me come to it without that defensiveness. We’re just two different people. We have a lot of history of our own that’s coming into this and can we just take a moment to listen to each other? PAM: Yeah, In my experience when I was not able to get to that validation place, where I just got stuck in that defensive place, we really were just batting it back and forth, trying to find the right words to convince the other person that we were right. And it was just however long we managed to stay at it. Us just trying to say the exact same thing in a bit of different words, right? Trying to convince the other one why our way of looking at the thing was better or more right or whatever. And theirs was wrong.  We were stuck in that somebody’s right, somebody’s wrong. Somebody has to give in. Somebody has to win. Somebody has to lose. That whole dynamic. But yes, my understanding of an ability to engage in validation shifted hugely when I realized or learned from Anna and the world at that time, that I didn’t have to agree with what they were saying to be able to validate their experience. That was a game changer for me because it helped me to recognize the importance and the value of seeing situations and circumstances through their eyes as well as my own. Understanding myself to a new level.  And triggers, those are always a big piece of it too. Recognizing triggers our own, and understanding they’re from our past experiences and they are our truth, right? But coming to recognize that their perspective is as valid to them as mine is, to me. Releasing that whole right wrong dynamic and judgment piece is hard. Because the way we see things is absolutely our truth, right? But that was really the way. When the other person, and think about ourselves. When we feel seen and heard, it’s like, oh, like I can put down the shield, I can put down the defensiveness. It’s like, okay, you hear me. You see my energy in reaction to whatever has come up. And now I  feel like I can be so much more open. And I find that when the other person feels seen and heard, like that’s when we can move out of discussions about this moment. Like, we’re not stuck here and actually start to meet each other where we are. So, that’s what was going through my mind, Anna, when you were talking about our partners being out of the house a good chunk of the day. They don’t see X, Y, and Z. So it’s not me trying to convince them and bat them over the head. It’s me meeting them with, if I didn’t know that, I would think that too. If I didn’t see all these other little pieces, like I can meet them where they are.  And then that’s where our more fruitful conversations that actually make some progress will be. That’s where we can talk about ourselves as human beings, as in people are different. This is the way I saw the thing. This is the way you saw the thing. Again, not right, wrong, not judging, but understanding the different perspectives.  And when we feel seen and heard, we can be so much more open to how things might unfold from there. We don’t have to come up with an answer. I think that’s the other thing in a disagreement, maybe where we want to move forward is let’s keep this in the back of our minds and then we’ll be maybe messaging each other over the next week or two. Because now that that’s bubbling up for us, we’re going to be paying a little bit more attention. We’re going to be noticing the things in front of us that relate to whatever we’re having a disagreement about, right? And then we can come to a more commonplace together that incorporates all our pieces. When the energy is down and we’re not feeling that defensiveness, we can be more open. It doesn’t have to be our solution. And it may end up being how we move forward weeks and months, is not the way either one of us first came to it. The disagreement, right? It’s like a new way makes sense.. This makes sense to you, and together we can walk down this path, but when you’re stuck in that defensiveness stage, you’re never going to be able to, or very rarely going to be able to get to the common path forward. The path that works for both of you. And validation really is that first step to take the energy out of that defensiveness. ANNA: Right. Right. And it does help move us from that black and white right and wrong paradigm. I think it’s so critical and all of these pieces that we’re going to talk about are related, but  I’m just going to highlight it. It’s assuming positive intent, which we talk about a lot as well. And what I’ve found is that it helps give me a little bit of a pause.Okay, let me just turn my thinking brain on versus my defensive maybe more primal brain. I just want to assume positive intent. They’re trying to figure something out. They’re trying to understand something about our family, or they love their kids, or they love me. And it’s interesting because I’ve had people say. How can it be positive intent if they’re grumping about this or whatever? The next step of assuming positive intent is they’re doing the best they can in that moment. Something is dysregulating to them and they are trying to figure out how to feel more regulated. Like they’re trying to figure out how, what can I control or do that will make me feel better? So when I can recognize, oh, that’s it. I can have so much more comion. So again, it’s not about me, that’s information about them and their state of mind and what’s happening for them. And me actually coming in with that defensive energy can just cause them to double down. Everything just kind of derails from there. And so when I can come from an assuming positive intent, comionate space. It opens things up and I think that validation is that first step because that’s when we can feel heard. If we don’t feel heard, most likely you’re going to get louder. And so, if we can feel heard, then a lot of times it can bring that energy down. And when I’m assuming positive intent, it’s easier to validate. For some people this is more of a trigger than others, but I definitely have a friend, who if she feels we are not giving her a generous assumption, it is very hurtful because she knows she’s coming from a place with a big heart trying to solve something. And so if someone makes a judgment about her, thinking that she’s not coming from that place, it’s really hurtful and it derails. And this trust that we talked about a few weeks ago, it really derails that. So when we can come to someone assuming positive intent, they feel that energy, they feel that connection. They feel understood and see we are trying, and that we’re trying to have a conversation and we want to help them get regulated and feel better to move through this upset. And so I think for me, assuming positive intent is just, it’s a reminder. It slows me down, it connects me with the person I want to be, which is to show up with comion for the people in my life. And so I think it’s another one that I just wanted us to highlight today.  ERIKA: It’s a huge one for me and a challenging one for me. What happens in my life is, maybe Josh will make a meal that has something that I said I don’t like. And then rather than assume positive intent, which is that he’s trying to make a good meal for everyone. I assume, I write a story that he doesn’t care about me, he wants to serve things I don’t like. I mean, this is when I’m at my low points. So assuming positive intent to me is, it’s not about me. I need to tell people what’s going on for me. People can’t read your mind. That part to me works right into assuming positive intent. So if I haven’t shared that something’s bothering me and someone does it. It’s not because they’re trying to hurt me, it’s because they can’t read my mind. And so assuming positive intent is a way to avoid getting defensive. And so then that’s the path towards then being able to validate and have more productive conversations. I used to bristle at the idea of it’s not about me because I feel like I just want it to be about me, and why wouldn’t it be about me? Why wouldn’t he know everything about what I like and what I need and be able to read my mind and be able to predict what would be good for me? This is major work for me to do in relationship, and it just helps so much. If I can think, okay, that’s a different person, not inside of my mind, another person who’s doing the absolute best that he can at all times. And assuming that what he’s doing is, is either trying to help himself feel better, trying to help the family, or just making the decisions that he thinks are the best in the moment. Then I can open up communication rather than shutting down, assuming the worst and getting really worried about everything in that way. So yeah, assuming positive intent is a bit of a growth area for me. I also want to mention a funny validation story, which is that I was talking to Anna one day and she was giving examples of how she had validated someone else and I was like, oh, I just feel so much better, me in that moment. Just hearing the words of validation, you have so much going on. This has been so hard. Just those things where it really feels like someone is seeing and hearing you. It helps so much to bring people’s anxiety, energy, all of that down. So anyway, I thought it was really funny that you don’t even really have to be directly validated to just have that type of language just to feel so good. PAM: Yeah, being in that energy really helps the ground. So many things are weaving together. I think we can get caught up in looking for perfection. I at my lower points, just watching to see what they would do. The whole reading your mind thing, right? Well, they should know me well enough and I can just count all the things that they did wrong, that they should know that I don’t like that. Just making that bit all about me, but not sharing the expectation that I said this once, three months ago when we were out at a party. Where would this random piece of information about me go in their brain to stay there that now it would pop right back up. Anyway, that was interesting. Thanks for that little trip down memory lane.  But the really important piece I think of assuming positive intent is something you mentioned, Anna. In this moment, they’re doing their best in this moment because assuming positive intent doesn’t mean ignoring what actually happened and just assuming that it was meant positively and perfectly and lovingly. No, it’s what’s happening in this moment and that’s giving us information. Maybe last week when a very similar moment happened they reacted or responded beautifully, or their choice in that moment felt perfect to me. And then why this week are they making a different choice that is knocking me for a loop that I’m not happy with, et cetera. That doesn’t mean assuming positive intent doesn’t mean ignoring those people, those moments, right? Having that expectation that once they’ve managed to do it the right way, that makes me feel good, so we don’t have a disagreement and from now on they’ll be able to do that thing. But because it is in the moment, it is so important to recognize maybe their capacity is down, maybe other things are bothering them. That’s why we talk about context so much. So when they’re doing something differently than maybe before, that’s causing us to get our back up. It could just be something completely different. Right? So I found being able to assume that positive intent, even if their initial motivation in that moment wasn’t particularly positive, maybe they were trying to get a rise out of us or whatever, but  that is so much more about them and something else that’s going on.  I don’t need to take the bait, so to speak. I can still assume positive intent, meaning that they’re doing the best they can in this moment. So the question becomes more, what is different about this moment? Is something up? Are you worried about something? That can be the direction that the conversation goes versus just the defensiveness. And why did you say that? Or why did you do that? Or, I don’t like peppers or whatever it is. Take the context. It’s not faking it or telling ourselves some erroneous story when we assume positive intent, even if maybe that’s not what they’re bringing because there’s a reason for whatever they’re bringing. ANNA: I love that because, again, it’s not making it , it’s bringing that comion to the moment. I think we can turn it around because sometimes that’s helpful for people. It’s helpful for me to go, okay, I’ve been dysregulated and I’ve said some pretty yucky things to people that I love and how different it is to be met with, Hey, are you okay? Or do you need something versus, don’t talk to me that way? Or, why are you being like this? Or you’re this terrible person? We are trying to do the best we can and when we’re dysregulated and under-resourced, it can come out in a harsh way. And so, I just want to be able to offer comion especially with this person that we love and are sharing our life with because it moves us through things faster. Like we get back to our connection point, which is where we both feel safer and more comfortable. And so it just leads us there, which I love. And now if you’re talking about a pattern of this that goes on for longer then looking at the context of what’s happening, there’s something else. But so often these are kind of isolated events when we get upset.  The next one I want to talk about is no set outcome. And we talk about this a lot when we’re talking about solving things with the whole family. Like when we’re talking about how we find solutions to things when we have people with these different needs.  But I think it really comes into play here because if we’re going into this disagreement thinking, okay, this has to be the solution for us, or we have failed and they’re thinking this has to be the solution or it’s not okay. It’s very hard to get anywhere with that. And this is again, about getting to those underlying needs because we can have this disagreement about bedtime or whatever it is. If we get to the underlying needs, we can often find that wiggle room for solutions.  Interestingly, I have found, even if both parties aren’t in agreement with this, it helps me not to come with an agenda, because even just that calms the energy a little bit. They don’t feel like they have to defend their position as harshly, like you said, Pam, like, how many ways can I say the same thing to defend my position, even if they’re not bought into this concept, but we are talking about someone you love. This is actually a conversation we can have. Hey, we’re going to figure this out. I want to hear everything you’re saying. And this is something we do with our kids too. This is feeling hard right now. I don’t know exactly how we’re going to get through it, but let’s just put all the options on the table because the big piece here is there’s no one right way. So when we understand that we can, it’s easier to let go of that set outcome or this agenda that we’re moving towards. And when we put it in the context of unschooling, I think it can be interesting because, especially if we have one partner that’s like researching and diving in and listening to all the podcasts and doing all the things. You get excited, right? You’re excited about all these pieces and you know how it’s going to work, and you know what the best unschooling way to be is. And you can imagine if you step back for a minute, how disorienting that can be to a partner that is not aware of all of these things that are happening and maybe is just getting little bits or pieces and it can actually feel super disconnecting because sometimes, people make dramatic changes as they’re going down this path. And so the partner’s thinking, we were on the same page here and now suddenly something’s changed. And so when we can let go of that one right way to just to share that this is the piece that excites me. This is the piece that’s really connecting for me that I see with our kids, or that I see in our life. Then you’re having a conversation versus a bulleted list of what we should do, and then they’re giving a bulleted list of what we should do. That’s the complete opposite. We’re losing that kind of interplay and the connection that probably brought you together however many years ago. I think it’s just really important to watch for an agenda. Watch for thinking that there’s a set outcome of convincing, because as you said, Pam, we kind of tunnel in on how do we convince and we miss a lot of information about our partner, but also about the context of the situation and our individual lives. Because as you and I, all of us say so many times, there’s no one unschooling family. There’s no list of unschooling rules. We did a whole podcast series that there’s not and so I think that piece can really help with these disagreements, especially if they’re around some of these parenting pieces or unschooling pieces, It can just stop that charged energy. Just really bring the energy back to, how do we solve this for our family? Let’s figure out something that feels good to all of us. ERIKA:  When you first come to new ideas though, that excitement is really hard to contain. It’s hard to not just want to convince everyone in the world, like, come on, I just found the answer. Let’s do it. It’s challenging and so to me, no set outcome requires a pause in my own mind and thinking. I need to remind myself there’s not just one way. It’s going to be okay, however it works out. And being open and curious, that’s it. But it is hard. I feel it being challenging in my mind because I will get really pumped up about an idea. I will want to convince, I will want to share how amazing it is. And if I don’t get a response that they immediately see it, it is amazing and let’s do it, Then it can be really hard to move through. And so, it’s internal work and practices of calming myself to say there’s space for different ideas. There’s not one right way. Even if we disagree, we can move through this. That if he has different ideas than me, that doesn’t mean that my ideas are wrong, but it just means there’s more communication that needs to happen. So, I really value the idea of no set outcomes, but find it challenging at times. PAM: Yes. So very challenging. I think for me, part of the work when I’m moving to that,  just bubbled up while you were talking, Erika. When it’s that energy that we were feeling, this is so exciting, let’s do this. I want to talk myself through this probably isn’t the only way to get that energy. What I want is that excitement and that energy and that direction, but like to keep that at the forefront versus the plan, the one plan I came up with to get there. To recognize that there are so many ways and plans and that’s the whole thing. Not holding out that agenda, that set outcome or to me it’s that set path. To get there. When I can be more open to the possibilities. Again, like you’re saying, it doesn’t mean giving in or giving up or, or any of those, common ways to describe it. But what that does is help, and you talked about this earlier, Anna, is just peeling back those layers to find and meet them where they are. Where is our common ground? Let’s find that common ground first. And then from there we can each feel the next step. And then, from that common ground, we can so often take baby steps. Steps that make sense to both of us. It’s like, okay, so I see that mountain over there and that’s the direction I want to go. But maybe we’ll like to take this little jog in the path for a little while and jog and jog if we can stay in that common ground and then the baby step, and then see what comes from the baby step. Maybe then we’re each learning and experiencing pieces and then the next baby step makes sense and the next baby step and then you can look up and say, oh yeah, we’re getting there. We took three steps and we’re a step closer but they’re feeling the same way.  Even if their mountain’s over here and yours is over here, we’re taking baby steps together and coming to a place and we’re both understanding each other a little bit better and a little bit better, because it doesn’t mean that we have to come up with the path and the answer to this maybe huge life changing, decision, choice, disagreement, whatever it is. We can take baby steps and check in, and we may find that we were just using different words and internally we were a lot closer than we imagined. But especially when you’re stuck in that defensiveness, you feel like you have to go to the opposite because you need more power. So I need to be so strong to get you to come my way. But maybe I really didn’t need to hold to that so tightly. This little bit. I can do that a little bit. Baby steps kind of became my mantra with my partner. Okay, well what’s the next baby step that makes sense to both of us, and then see where we are. ANNA: Oh, I love that. And I’m going to take your little metaphor a bit further. So you’re walking towards your mountain and they’re walking towards their mountain. I love the baby steps, but I think what happens is you make a new mountain in the middle that serves your unique family and then you really are walking towards the same place. It’s not exactly what you thought because maybe you were in this mindset of this is what unschooling looks like, or whatever the thing is, and this is what parenting looks like to them. But we found something that fits for our unique children, for our unique relationship, and that’s really beautiful. That is just that process of slowing that down. It’s so worth it because this is our life. These are the people that we’re spending our lives with. That is ultimately going to be what defines our life is our relationships and how we are moving through all of these different pieces.  So I really, really love that. I feel like these three things that we went over really give everybody a very big head start into how you could change that dynamic with a discussion that’s maybe feeling charged. Or even if you’re feeling attacked at first about something, you can see, okay, I can breathe through this. We can figure this piece out and bring that different energy to it. And so, do we want to do like one through a quick example or what do you think? ERIKA: Well, I had a couple parts of this that I don’t think we’ve mentioned yet and we could do an example of something that comes up. Disagreements can feel huge, something like a major difference in parenting style or it could be something small like the dining room table has a craft project on it. It’s bothering the other person. Little things that can blow up or big things that can blow up. One thing that I feel like might be the biggest shift to make is to switch from saying you always, or you did two, “I” messages and Anna, you remind everyone about this all the time, but “I” messages are so valuable in these relationships with our partners because as soon as someone says you left this stuff on the table. Why do you always do that? Immediately the other person’s defenses are up. Immediately. You can’t help it. If somebody says you something, it’s going to raise those defenses. And so saying, I am feeling so overwhelmed today, I really could use a clean dining room table to serve dinner helps so much. Your partner can hear that and it’s not going to cause that same defensiveness as, why do you always leave stuff on the table? These are little things, but they can cause days long arguments, just based on that kind of communication style. PAM: Yes, that is huge. I love that. And that’s such a lovely thing to bring to the whole process, right? I love the distinction you made there between the little everyday things because those can build and build into big, explosive moments. And that’s kind of where we fall into patterns. Because we bumped into it today and we bump into it three days from now and we bump into it at the end of the week. It’s like, oh, you always do X, Y, Z. Right? And that explodes out. But as we talked about a lot with the narration and the I messages, then it’s something , and then they don’t immediately feel judged and the need to defend themselves. They can be like, oh, okay, they’re feeling this. and I wonder where that’s coming from. They can do their own processing to recognize because I always go back to context, but the context for them may be that they had a project out and then some emergency came up and then they got really busy for a couple of days. So, two or three of our experiences of that are part of the bigger context of something that’s going on for them. It’s not, I’m going to leave this on the table just to piss them off. Very rarely is the choice actually motivated by just to piss them off.  ANNA: That’s our assuming positive intent, they’re not doing it to upset us. PAM: See, it all comes together so critically. I love how these tools apply no matter the situation, whether it’s a typical one like screens, food, bedtime, and the whole kind of parenting paradigm shift that comes with moving to unschooling and embracing unschooling. To just the little everyday moments of the shoes at the front door and the stuff on the table and all the little pieces. To be able to take these tools of validation and assuming positive intent in the moment and not having a set outcome. Maybe the outcome in that moment is, let’s have a picnic on the floor because I really need to finish this thing and I’ll be able to do it tomorrow. But it would be amazing if we could just leave it here on the table for now. I’m not giving in when I choose, let’s like have a picnic. Let’s make the best of this moment. Because that can be fun too, so that we’re not doing it begrudgingly. We’re not doing it with this energy of, you owe me that. We’re just embracing something different and it wasn’t what our choice was at the beginning, but as we learn more, because we’ve gone through the process of having that little discussion, we can come up with something that seems fun for everybody too. ANNA: And I mean I’m all about intentional language and so I do think those “I” messages can help. And again, this works even if you don’t have somebody that understands and uses those same tools because when they come at you with the “you are” message. Then we can recognize that it’s about their dysregulation. That’s where their head is at this moment. They’re feeling really upset about the table, or they’re feeling really defensive that we’re trying to take their project down thinking we’re in the right because we need a clean table. You know? That’s where if we can use these tools to just assume positive intent, wow. What they said at us was really intense. That’s about them. How can we move forward with curiosity and with validation to maybe bring that energy down?  Because then I think once you bring that energy down, then they’re able to say, I just haven’t had time to finish it. I have had so many things back to back. And then we get more context, then we get more understanding about why it’s there. But again, as soon as we go to defense mode it derails. Ideally we’re talking about this as a family, how to use “I” messages and how to own our pieces of what’s happening because of the things on the table or because of when dinner is or because of what bedtime looks like or any of those pieces. And so, just think of any example in your head and walk through the same process, whether it’s a little or big, and you’ll see that it can change the energy and you’ll learn so much more about your partner and your kids and so much more about yourself because you’ll be articulating why something’s important to you and you’re having a conversation that looks a little bit different than just making assumptions about it. PAM: Yeah. I gotta say, one thing that really bubbled up for me. There is that understanding of somebody else and their triggers that can help us nip disagreements in the bud before they even bubble up. Because we can understand the things that are triggers or stressful for them, and we can, when we’re u the table and we know, we can already narrate that to put them at ease before it starts to bother them to the point where they’re going to need to explode into a disagreement of sorts or like bring that negative energy to it, because then they can see, right? Oh yeah, they’re doing it for this reason. It’s not to piss me off or they have a need for this, et cetera. And we can do that “I” messaging narrating along the way beforehand too because as we learn more about each other, well this’ll be an important thing to mention to somebody ahead of time, maybe before they see it or as they’re seeing it or something like that. We can even just be sharing our lives together in ways that the “I” messages can help them feel seen and heard. ERIKA: Right. I love that. Okay, what about if you have a dysregulated partner and they just come into the room like, things need to change around here. We need to do more things as a family. Why are they always on their screens, et cetera. What is the first step of validating that person to lower this energy? ANNA: I think I would just start with, Oh my gosh. Tell me more. What’s happening? I can see that you’re just so upset about it. Has something specific happened? And maybe they’ll be like, no, it’s just everything. It’s just been all week. All I’ve seen is this and blah, blah, blah. And just say, that sounds so hard. And I miss you, and tell me more. It’s been a really tough week. Maybe we can give some context too, because sometimes that can help. Like I know how hard you’ve been working this week. I know that the lawnmower broke and then we had this water leak, and I know these things have been happening, and it has felt like we’ve been super disconnected as a family. We can validate that piece. Pull out that piece that they’re wanting the family to get together, they’re feeling disconnected because so often these kinds of things are coming from a feeling of being disconnected and so we can really validate. You’re just feeling really disconnected from us and I mean, gosh, we haven’t seen you all week, or whatever it is.  But you’ll see just the slight change in energy because we’re not fighting them on it. We’re not saying, well, where have you been? Or what have you been doing? Whatever it is. So I think that’s where I start, tell me more. I want to understand. That sounds really hard. I know we haven’t seen you much or we’re feeling disconnected, or I would love for us to do more things as a family. Because even that, so even we can say, I would love for us to do more things as a family, doesn’t mean we’re going to be turning off all the computers, or we’re going to never do whatever the things that are being stated.  I would always love for us to do more things as a family, find that little piece that’s a yes, and then I think we can get to the solution of that later. We have to bring the energy down so that we can be creative in that moment. PAM: And I find too, especially when they’re coming with the messages about the family, it’s so often about disconnection or they’re not feeling part of the family, they’re feeling disconnected in some way. So, yes, validating that piece and something that I found to be really useful. What does the day look like? For you, what would a great day look like for you? Like a great moment. And that helps them feel seen and heard when you’re open to hearing, because we were talking about it.  Getting to the root, peeling back the layers, finding the common ground. Because like you said, I love hanging out together and spending time together. And when I can ask questions with curiosity and love to let them explain how they’re seeing things. That’s a common ground. And then one, the energy is clearer and we feel connected in that moment. Like you said, it doesn’t mean that we have to stop everything else that we’re doing. I just want to be able to hang out with, with child A, B, C, whatever, and, and do things together. But then that’s when you can start to facilitate. Maybe it’s a board game, because then we can bring our experience as to the things that we already know they do enjoy together. Maybe there is a show or a movie that they enjoy, because when they start to express what connection looks like or feels like to them, then they have opened themselves up too. Because so often the answer to that is not something specific like at eight o’clock, I want them to come out and ride a bike with me, and then when we get back, we’re going to go get our gloves and we’re going to throw a ball. It’s more like I just want to do stuff with them, right? I want them to enjoy the stuff that we do together. I don’t want to feel like they’re trying to get it done and get away from me. Like those pieces. So that’s where you can move to conversations about what do you guys like doing together? And they can realize the screens don’t become part of the conversation at that point. It’s about connecting, right? Then it can come up there is this show that you guys love, or this YouTube channel or this video game. And then that helps them and you can help them find a way. But the thing is, what you can help them with is recognizing that they do want something that both people enjoy doing. It doesn’t have to look like just their vision. I wish I had a child that loved to go ride bikes with me. We can validate, I know you love doing that. You know you’re a happy person and then you find the things that you enjoy doing with this child and with this child. If we were feeling a little disconnected, having a pizza night and Mario party where we all came together. It wasn’t about the video game, it was about the connection, about hanging around together.  And the frustration doesn’t need to be part of the conversation per se. It’s not like, no screens forever. You get to the root for them. They want to connect. When we’re frustrated, the always and the nevers come up. The clues when you hear those kinds of words. Okay, let’s just not, we’re not even having that actual conversation right now. We’re validating, we’re peeling back, we’re getting down to what is the root of that always and never. And when they can feel seen and heard around that, then they can be more open to all the possibilities of meeting it and those always and nevers may well be beautiful maybes.  ERIKA: Right. And getting to the needs underneath. It’s just this conversation journey to go on together. But I feel that first step is not making their feelings wrong, not making their emotions wrong. Because when people come into a conversation with that kind of energy, they’re expecting a fight. That’s kind of what they’re coming in for and so if we don’t fight back, if instead you say, It makes sense that you’re upset. It makes sense that you’re feeling disconnected. Your feelings are valid and let’s talk about what’s going on for you. I think in many cases, people coming in with that energy would appreciate just being able to talk about how overwhelming things are for them in general at that time. Just tell me about what’s stressing you out, because I can tell that something’s going on.  Just the power of that, of us not getting our defenses up and just being able to validate and say that it’s okay. It’s okay to be upset about things. It’s okay to feel disconnected. Figuring out those underlying needs and how to meet them all together with kids and connection. If you really can get to that, I’m just feeling disconnected, then that opens things up.There’s a million ways that we could figure out that problem. And if you’re willing to do things with the kids that they like to do, you’re going to get that connection back. And so if we have the vision that they never want to do this thing I want to do with them. If I have that conversation and realize. What I really want is to feel connected. I really want to have fun with them. Then maybe I could go, okay, it’s a little disappointing that they are not into this thing that I’m into, but what if I can try out what they’re interested in and then we can connect in a way that feels really good to them and you. Then you build that relationship and add up those good experiences together. PAM: Yeah. I was helping them sort their priorities. Like, you love this thing. And you want to connect with your kids. Those can be two separate things. Like I said, you can go off and go mountain biking or whatever it is that you love to do and you can connect. If connecting with your kids is the priority, find something that you both enjoy doing together. You don’t need to lump them together or kill two birds with one stone, whatever metaphor you want to use. They don’t have to go together so that you can efficiently do the thing you love and connect with your child. I mean, yes, there is some disappointment and we have this vision. We wish we all love doing these things and we could all do this together. But yeah, that’s our personal journey and that’s what we can help them tease apart, when we get to how we meet our needs.  ANNA: Okay a few things. So then that reminded me. I think the paradigm shift is instead of we’re a family doing all the things, we’re an outdoor family, we’re a musical family. What if the culture of the family is, we are a family that s each other in doing the things that we love, because that actually feels good. I think so often with adults that have maybe not been heard when they were younger. They kind of want to be, this is my time, we’re going to do the things I want to do. But it’s like, oh my gosh, we can all do the things that we want to do and we can each other and feel connected in that. So I think that’s kind of an interesting paradigm shift. But what I wanted to say before that was just a quick reminder. Because we talk about this with kids, it’s the big language piece. So when they come at you with that big language, everything’s going to hell in a hand basket. This is the worst. They’re this. They’re never going to do anything. They’re never going to amount to anything. Oh my goodness, recognize that it is just big language for the emotions inside. And like you said, probably so much about the overwhelm they’re experiencing from something going on in their life. Maybe there’s other things in all of our lives or in the family’s life that’s really feeling hard. Just like with the kids, just let that big language slide over and go, wow, this person is upset. And I want to understand. And when we can change that to just not focus on the words. because that’s kind of what you were saying too, Pam, that reminded me, when we focus on the words, we actually aren’t getting at what the needs are necessarily because taking the iPads isn’t going to connect them. So if the need is connection, we’ve actually focused on the words and probably made it worse. And so just letting the words slide over to really hear and validate and bring that energy down gets us to that underlying need.  PAM: I love that. Right. So yes, it’s beautiful. Thank you so much for ing us. We hope that you enjoyed our conversation, our longer conversation this week, and maybe even picked up a nugget or two for navigating disagreements with your partner and generally with anyone in your life that you love. If you would like to dive deeper, we do have a course called Navigating Conflict, which is designed to help you gain a better understanding of how our personalities, our life experiences, and how we’re feeling in the moment can contribute significantly to the ways in which conflicts arise and unfold. It includes six lessons, each of which includes exercises to help you more deeply process the topic and what it looks like for you, because all together now we are all different people. We encourage you to spend time with these exercises so that you can move beyond the intellectual understanding of these tools, the tools that we talked about, and get a feel for what they look like for you in practice. To pick up our Navigating Conflict course, just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on courses in the menu. Wishing everyone a wonderful day. Thanks, Anna. Thanks, Erika. Take care!

In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about building trust with our children. We regularly mention trust on the podcast, as we’ve found that trust is the foundation of the strong relationships that make unschooling thrive. We had a lot of fun talking about ways to build trust in and with our children. We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey! THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more! The Living Joyfully Network Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram. Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling. Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling? We invite you to us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation! So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ANNA: Hello everyone! I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully, and today I am ed by my co-hosts, Pam Laricchia and Erika Ellis. Hello to you both.  Before we get started, I wanted to encourage you to check out our shop where you can find books, courses, coaching, and information about the Living Joyfully Network. The shop has resources and for every stage of your journey, and you can find the link in the show notes, or you can visit livingjoyfullyshop.com. Today we’re going to be talking about how to build trust with our kids. It’s such a critical part of the process. That foundation of trust helps us navigate all that life throws at us, keeping our connection at the forefront. So, I’m excited about this one. Erika, would you like to get us started? ERIKA: I would. I really love this topic, because trust is something that comes up so often in the podcast conversations, in Network conversations. It’s a big part of what makes unschooling, in quotes, “work”. And it’s a big part of what we mean when we talk about strong relationships that we’re cultivating with our kids. And trust is really a two part thing. It’s my kids trusting me. I want my kids to trust me, to know that I’ll follow through with what I say and that I will listen to them when they tell me about who they are. But it’s also me trusting my kids. I want to trust that they know what works best for them, that they are on their own path. And so trust is going in both directions and for me it’s such an important focus to build trust and to avoid doing things that would undermine trust. I know we have a lot of different aspects of building trust that we will dive into. But what came to mind first to me was one of the tricky parts about it, which is that you can’t just say, “Trust me,” to your kids, and then they’ll trust you. Trust is really something that builds over time and it takes patience and it’s more about our actions than it is about our words, which can be difficult. It takes more intention. And it’s something that comes as a feeling from within the other person, in this case, our kids, and we don’t have any control over whether they’re feeling that or not. So, we can’t rush the process. It just takes the time that it takes. I think if there’s been a history of us pushing through their consent or a history of my child not feeling heard or seen by me, then trust could take even a longer time to build. I think that each step we’re taking, each intentional trust building step that we’re taking, along that path to being a more trustworthy parent, to being more trusting of them just adds, it’s building that relationship, building strength into the relationship. And that trust will just grow from there, one interaction to the next. PAM: That was a huge one for me, understanding that trust is something that I build through my actions. I think that’s something that can trip us up, especially in the beginning when you realize, oh maybe my child doesn’t trust me. They’re not doing X, Y, Z, or acting like they trust me. And that can feel like, oh no. Oh no. But the shift to, okay, I want to be a person that my child trusts, what does that look like? How can I actually do those things? I don’t literally need to go up to them and say, do you trust me? That would be a weird question to ask yet. It’s one of those things where it’s through my actions and through their actions. That’s how we’re communicating about trust. Versus the actual meta conversations about it. The fascinating thing is the timetable, right? It’s not our timetable to control, even though that’s what we’re trying, we’re trying to build trust with them. We want them to trust us. And we can even talk about why, when it comes to life, you want someone to trust you so that they will come to you when they need help. They won’t try to figure things out on their own. But same with learning, right? When you first come to unschooling, looking about learning that strong and trusting relationship is so valuable for learning too. Because they’ll come, they’ll feel more comfortable coming to you with the questions. Instead of worrying that maybe this is a dumb question or worrying about being judged. Thinking that, my mom won’t like that. I’m interested in this thing, so I need to hide that.  When you want a more engaged and open relationship, trust is an important part of it, and to take the timetable out of it entirely. And Anna, you say, be the parent that I want to be now and, and I want to be a parent who’s trusted by my child and my partner. So that’s how this person acts. You don’t wait till they trust you. And once you trust me, then I’m going to be a trustworthy person. No, it goes the other way. I need to be that trustworthy person upfront and eventually, on their timetable, they will come to trust us as much as they will. And it’s so interesting to see, that’s your from them. If you see them hiding things more and you feel it’s more out of a worry about your reactions, then you can be a little more cognizant of your reactions. Try to take that little beat and instead of reacting more, give myself a couple choices in this moment rather than just react. Maybe my instincts are something that I’m trying to move through a little bit. ANNA: A couple things that came to mind from what you all said. There’s two things I’m hoping I’m going to , but one is. I think we can also be paralyzed by this piece of, it’s going to take time and what do we do? Or there’s been a problem. And so I think it’s really important to let it sink in that this is not about being perfect. This is not about never making mistakes, that it really is about showing up for the repair. Because that builds trust too. When there’s a problem they know I’m going to come back.  They know I’m going to come back and figure out, how do I repair it? And it really creates a climate where they can do the same, because there’s going to be times when they impact our trust in them, but then we know we can make the repair. And so as much as it’s about building trust, it’s about learning how to make a repair too. And so I think that can lighten some of the panic about, how do I always be perfect with my words? How do I always follow through perfectly? How do I always do this? Let go of that and instead think, how do I just stay connected? You know? How do I make a repair? How do I recognize it? And I love what you just said too there, Pam, about that little barometer, like you’re going to get messages about not trusting, just like I’m sure you can think of other relationships that you’re in where you give messages to someone that you don’t trust them. We can think about how we are in relationships that maybe we feel trusted or maybe we don’t, and kind of recognize how that looks. The other thing that came up from what you were saying, Pam, that I think is absolutely critical is letting go of judgment. I think our culture is very quick to judge things. It’s kind of a shortcut, right? Like, oh, that’s good, this is bad. That’s this, this is that. And so we make this snap judgment, and I think it’s so important to take that beat, like you said, to just be curious about what they’re bringing to us, because nothing’s happening in that exact moment when they’re bringing us something that maybe feels a little scary or feels like it’s not a good idea. Let’s be curious. Let’s lean in, let go of that judgment because you’re so right, Pam. And that piece alone, I think does the most damage because they won’t come to us. They won’t come to us if they think, she isn’t going to like it or, I’m going to get judged about it, or they feel like, she’s not going to like me. Because when we start judging what they’re doing, and maybe this is getting a little off track, but I think it’s related. When we judge, even if they’re watching YouTube or they’re doing something that maybe we don’t understand or like, when we are judging, really and truly kids are taking that in as you’re judging me, you don’t like me. Because I like this thing and you don’t like me. And so. Really working. And I mean, it was work for me too, to just let go of that judgment and just really have that open and curious mindset. It makes such a difference when we’re doing this kind of cultivating and building trust. ERIKA: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And here’s so many places where I think when kids are young Maybe we get into a routine of just making decisions for them. And so I think it can, over time, build a culture of, they don’t hear me.  I think it is important, just as the child gets older and starts being more aware of having opinions about these things. Realizing, I’m different. I have my own interests, I have my own things I want to do. As your child is growing and as you’re trying to build trust with them, things like being honest with them about what’s really happening. Giving them the whole picture rather than trying to just convince them to go on an outing, really giving them the whole picture of this is what it’s going to be like, this is what’s going to be expected of you, and those kind of of things. I feel like those are the things that really build trust. Where it’s like, okay, I trust that my parent is going to be honest with me and tell me what’s really going on. And I think for a lot of kids in mainstream parenting, that is not a priority. Giving kids the truth, giving them the whole picture, that kind of thing. Allowing space for their experience to be true for them and not judging how they’re feeling about things. That builds trust. I can come to you and tell you that I don’t like this, and you’re not going to say, yes you do. You always have. Everyone likes this and just blow off their opinions about things. I think a little signal for me sometimes that I am not being trustworthy, is if my kids say, you didn’t tell me that was going to happen. Why didn’t you tell me that was coming up? Why didn’t you tell me we were doing that today? Life gets busy. Sometimes I forget to communicate everything but that communication and really including our kids in what’s going on in their own lives. I feel like that is part of  trust building, helping them feel prepared for things, not blindsided by things. Being there when you say that you’re going to be there, following through if you say, I can’t do it now, but I’ll do it later, and then following through on that. Those are little things that make a huge difference in building trust and making sure that they feel like they’re a priority in your life too. And then when you’re trusting in them, that builds their trust in you too. So, I love how all of these actions and these intentional ways that we can relate to our kids, build on each other to create that stronger relationship. PAM: Yeah. Oh, I love all those, the little list. Because I think that was really helpful, for me anyway. Was thinking about what actions can help as I built trust. And that was a great list there. And one of the things, and I’m going to pull it out because I think you mentioned it, Erika, but it’s the being responsive piece of it. To trust that we will help them in the moment, to be consistently available. This is not something that, okay, I’m going to drop everything and, and off we go. As they get older, they’re doing more things on their own. They need our help less often, but when they need it being responsive in the moment is really helpful. But also as you mentioned, it doesn’t mean dropping everything. There’s context, there’s our lives going on around us. So even if I can help you in 10 minutes. But it’s showing up 10 minutes later, or learning not to say 10 minutes to say when I finish the thing, because I always underestimate how long it will take to do something. So that’s part of knowing ourselves, right? As we’re talking with them and figuring things out. But that openness is so useful too, because then, even in that sentence, oh, I’m, I am right in the middle of doing this. As soon as I’m done, I think it’ll be 10 minutes.  I’ll come and check in and watch what you wanted to share, or we’ll go do this thing, whatever it is that they’re coming and wanting. Because right in that moment, in that 15 seconds, they recognize that our delay is about the thing that we’re doing. It’s not about me trying to put off. Because I don’t like what they’re asking for. And like you said, Anna, they will take that personally. If they don’t like this thing that I like, then they don’t like me, is so often the message that they’re absorbing from it. So, taking that 15, 20 seconds to just explain what’s up for us and then following through. Because like you both said, that’s where the trust is built, right? Trust doesn’t mean immediate reaction. Sometimes it does, but trust is like that. They can trust that what we say, we will follow through on that we mean it, right? And that  builds trust. When they recognize, oh, this is about them, not about me. Then they don’t take that weight with them and ruminate for 10 minutes until we manage to show up. All those little pieces are so valuable. But yeah, it’s not being perfect, you know? It’s not being immediately responsive. Trust is so much bigger than that, I feel. And when we can understand ourselves that little bit, as well as how they might see it, seeing the moment through their eyes. Like if they come running in super excited and I’m like, oh, 10 minutes, and they’re like, no, it’s happening right now, then yes, I’m going to make that choice. For the most part, unless I’m in the middle of an emergency, I’m going to make that choice because now I’ve got a little bit more information that tells me the priority of it, right? And I can shift. It’s not me giving in. It’s not me making a mistake in any way. If it goes sideways, we can repair. That’s, like you said, where the trust is actually built. ANNA: What you’re describing, that narration, I think is so important because when we’re able to just say a little bit more about the steps there, it also helps them have freedom to have more steps. And so it even can be a question like when that comes up, hey, will 10 minutes work? I’m trying to finish this. Tell me what’s happening, get a little bit more information and have a little bit more of a conversation. And then, like you said, they’ll see. Oh, this is not about her not wanting to do this. It’s about something that she’s trying to finish. But I will say a piece of that too, like just part of my journey, it was really to pause, because I can get focused on what I’m doing in the moment. It’s a little bit hard to pull myself out. Really, I did a lot of work to be available when they’re coming, especially teenagers. We’ve talked about this before, Pam. Like, when a teenager comes in front of you, I’m just like, drop it. If it’s not an emergency call or something, I’m just drop it and want to be present. Because what I’ve seen with teenagers is they tend, if they don’t get the response, they just tend to go back off and you’ve missed the opportunity, you know? And so part of building trust is that piece of being available. It’s not about, like you said, I’m throwing away and not thinking about my life. It really is about priorities and for me, in those moments, my priority was being there for that person in my life, and especially teens I feel like, but really all kids. I feel like teens are going through such a hard time. There are so many things going on with them and it can feel so hard at times. And so, I think it just felt really reassuring to know I could show up for that and make that a priority. So, I think that piece is important, but that narration of just what’s happening in my head for them is that little bit of a step that lets them know, oh, this isn’t about me. She’s doing something and then showing up, and then following through, and then sitting down and just really sinking into that moment with whatever they want to share, whether it’s upset or a funny game, or a cat meme or whatever the thing is. Because that’s that bid for connection too, right. ERIKA: Just being able to be present for whatever they’re bringing, I feel like is a big part of trust with my kids. We’ve had moments in the past where maybe my son will say, I didn’t want to tell you about that because I know you don’t like that. Or I know you would have a reaction to it, and so I don’t want to talk about that. And so for me, those are little things of like, okay, I need to control my reactions a little bit more, or I’m bringing too much of an emotional response when something comes up. And, so just being more intentional about giving space for whatever they’re going to bring. It’s such a good feeling to be that person for them that they can come with anything. And so that is something that I focus on a lot and that feeling that they can tell me something privately, something important and sensitive and things they’re still just figuring out and that I can hold that. And that just builds their trust in me. And the fact that I can it’s okay if they’re upset, it’s okay if they’re angry, it’s okay. I can hold all of those emotions. And so this is, as we always say, unschooling is our work to do this. Having them trust us is a lot our work to do. Releasing and working through our triggers, grounding ourselves to the place where when they come with whatever they’re coming with, we can be there as this steady presence. I think what you’re talking about with the teen years, that’s just so huge for me with my kids right now who are 13 and 15, they really just need me to be able to be there when they need me, be there when they need to talk something out. Otherwise they’re just going to be thinking of it in their heads sitting in their rooms worrying about things. And so for our relationship, having them trust me with their most sensitive conversations is just so huge. PAM: Exactly my experience too. And it just felt like the way you framed it as priorities, Anna, which came with kind of the shift in the timetable because when they’re younger, they’re like here all the time and you’re coming across them all the time. But then as teens, even if they’re not literally out and about with other things, they’re actively engaging on their own with other things so that when a time pops up in their day, week, or month where they’re coming to us. This is the opportunity, right? This is the time because there is less time when we can go and interrupt or just engage with them. So it’s less about our timetable and more about theirs. So that is how I easily made that the priority when they came because this is the opportunity right now. This is when we can connect and engage and I can, for the most part, 95% of the time just rearrange that moment for myself.Whatever I’m into, I can, let that sit for a bit. To engage because my priority is that relationship and that connection. One other piece that I wanted to talk about a little bit was because this trust relationship I find so interesting and their trust in me, I found grew along or I was able to cultivate that better when I was also cultivating my trust in my kids. It’s a two way street. So it was for me, just quickly, one of the things that helped me cultivate my trust in them was just by getting to know them, right? Understanding their personality, their motivations, their goals, their interests. I could understand them better and their choices. Once I understood them better, things didn’t feel like they were out of the blue so much. Right? This makes total sense for them. If I didn’t understand them, it would be like, oh my gosh that came right out of left field and I’d feel like I was being batted around. Being open and approachable we were just talking about with teens, but really inviting our children to come to us whenever they want our help and making that a priority for ourselves. And because that’s how we get to know them better, right? That’s how we get to understand what their current motivations are, what their goals are, the things that they’re feeling challenged by or frustrated with. And by giving them some space, like you talked about space a little bit earlier, Erika, just seeing their choices and how things play out as they explore and learn. If we jump in, even if we’re not telling them what to do, if we jump in with our suggestions, then those kind of end up being the suggestions on the plate. But if we can give them that space. To come up with some suggestions on their own. Unless they’re literally coming to us and saying, Hey, I’m feeling stuck. What do you think? It’s not, oh no, you go figure that out on your own. But if we don’t jump in with things, we give them some more space and we see how they approach things.  We see some ideas that they come up with. We see how those unfold for them, and we are learning more about them. They’re learning more about themselves too. The beautiful thing, as I deepened my trust in them, I could really see the consistency of their choices and what made so much sense for them. I could see things better through their eyes than me putting myself in that situation. And if I was a kid, if I was 12 years old at this moment, this is what it would feel like. It’s very different for them. They’ve had a whole different life. They’ve had and love and all that kind of stuff. But anyway, ultimately what I wanted to get to is what happens is that trust as they get older, as they’re making choices in the future, even if I didn’t understand them in that moment, I could trust them more. Because it’s like, oh, when I know more, or when I see how it will make sense to me because the last few years have not been nothing but out of the blue experiences. But if I see that time after time, I’ve understood their perspective and where their choices are coming from. In that moment, I can react with so much more trust when I don’t yet understand it, because I know that it will make sense. Sometimes maybe their trust doesn’t even make sense to them in the moment, but for us to show up, trusting and open and having conversations with them, that will become clear for them too. Like my instinct is drawing me to this thing. I’m not quite sure why I’m going to like it. I can that. And help them explore it and figure out why it’s calling to them. For that, my trust in them, it really reflects back their trust in me at the same time. Right. I really feel like it’s a spiral. ANNA: I want to kind of combine the two things that the two of you said, which is, I really think it’s so important to get to know them because I think one of the common stumbling blocks you see is that. We really do put ourselves with our childhood and who we were in those situations into their situations.  Whether it’s friends at the park, whether it’s some kind of an upset about something, whether it’s some kind of doing something, it is just always a recipe for disaster because they’ve had such a different life than we do, no matter what, even if you were unschooled, which is probably unlikely. They’ve still had such a different life and so, that time that you’re talking about Pam, to just really get to know them and watch their choices and hear about them and not insert yourself or what your choice would be, and let that unfold is so critical because I think, again, we can bring this energy of, oh my gosh, if I were doing this or if this had happened to me, I would feel X or I would need this. And it really short circuits their process of understanding themselves and understanding the situation. And when I’ve talked to people about this, it really can calm them. They have different tools, they have a different experience, and then we can let that unfold. What I love is that it’s fun to get to know them. Right? I mean, that’s kind of the fun part of this. Understanding we’re all so different. It really just helps kind of hammer that in. This thing that felt hard for me at 15, actually doesn’t feel hard to them and this thing that felt easy to me feels hard to them. And so we can share that and talk about it and understand each other. I just think it’s a really beautiful part of it is getting to know who they are and that builds trust because they don’t think we’re trying to insert our way, because it makes no sense to them. Right? It makes no sense to them when we’re activated by something that isn’t activating them. And so I think that this back and forth trust and that narration can help them understand, that’s about you and here’s what’s happening for me. So yeah, I loved that, that point. ERIKA: Yeah. This is bringing up, there’s no one right way. Dropping the judgment. It’s a long game. There’s plenty of time. Because I feel like sometimes in this parent position I can be like, oh no, they’re doing this. I better tell them that’s not good. I better try to make it so that it works out. But then that is just undermining their trust in themselves and undermining my trust in them. And so, keeping in mind that everyone’s different. There’s not one right way to do things. This is a long game. There’s plenty of time for them to get where they’re going. It just slows everything down for me. I can listen to what they’re saying, look at what they’re doing without rushing to that judgment, giving myself time to get to know who they are. I love that. Then our trust in them helps them have trust in themselves. It’s all growing trust, which is just amazing. PAM: Yes. It’s a beautiful circle and I love all those little bits. Like those are why, those are little mantras that we often mention. Even the group of them worked together so nicely to help bring down our own energy and something you said, let me see if I can , Erika, that we are trying to get things to work out perfectly for them. That was another big aha moment for me. It doesn’t mean I don’t try, if I recognize how I might be able to help set something up that will work, that I suspect might work better for them. I do my best, but also to be able to, once I’ve done that, just release it to see how it unfolds and to not feel like things are going to go sideways. Things are going to go sideways. Like you were talking about Anna before with the repair piece. There is nothing wrong. We haven’t failed when things go sideways. We will all learn little pieces. Maybe I’ll learn that. Gee, I tried and I set it up this way and oops, that actually knocked against what they were  trying to accomplish because I kind of thought it was something different. I kind of thought it was six months ago, child, and now it’s today’s child who has grown and changed and maybe more internally than I had yet recognized, and this was my moment when I recognize that they have grown beyond that, or they have shifted in what they’re interested in or what they’re trying to get out of this activity. So we can do our best in the moment, which includes our capacity and all those pieces. And then it unfolds the way it unfolds, and we learn from that and we put that in our toolbox, and that comes with us next time, right? But we can get so caught up in trying to make things that work out perfectly and then feel bad. If they don’t like it, it’s our responsibility. No, it’s life and things are going to go sideways. And if, if things often go sideways, it’s like, okay, I really have a few things that I am just trying to do repeatedly that are not working. If it’s happening often that’s a pattern and a clue for me to revisit my foundations, et cetera. But expecting the pendulums to swing the other way and for me to always be on and get it right is an unrealistic expectation too. ANNA: Right? And I think so much about that when we’re looking at their life. It’s making it . Maybe we’re uncomfortable with what they’re going through. Maybe they’re saying things that, again, are bringing us back to that moment, or we’re projecting it out into the future. But as soon as we start that we’re making it and that harms trust because they don’t need to be carrying our weight from our teenagehood. They don’t need to be carrying some bizarre weight we have about being the perfect parent. And if we didn’t, if we were the perfect parent, that nothing would go sideways. That’s so much . And so I love that you said it earlier, Erika. It’s just like, this is our work to do. This is our work to do. And in doing that, again, I think our kids really sense that and see it, and I think all the people in our life do when we’re able to just let people experience their life, be there as a , but not judging, not making it , not inserting ourselves in that narrative. I really like thinking about it in that way. PAM: Love that. ANNA: Yep. Well, this was fun and I think it was a really important conversation so thank you both and thanks for listening, and we hope you found it helpful on your unschooling journey. And if you enjoy these kinds of conversations, I think you’d love the Living Joyfully Network. You can learn more about it at livingjoyfully.ca/network  We’d love to see you there and look forward to seeing you on the next podcast. Thanks so much. Bye!

We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and we’re talking about transitional ages and seasons. While there is definitely not one path through childhood, there are common transitional ages where major changes typically occur. In this episode, we talk about some shifts that happen from the toddler to child years, big kid to preteens, teenage years, and moving into young adulthood. Brain development, body growth, and personality changes can sometimes leave us feeling like we’re meeting a whole new person! We talked about how our unschooling lives help these transitional times, too, with unconditional love, curiosity, and strong relationships. It was a really fun conversation and we hope you find it helpful on your unschooling journey! THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE EU370: There’s Plenty of Time EU360: What’s So Magical About Age 18? The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, coaching, and more! The Living Joyfully Network Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram. Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling. Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling? We invite you to us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about ing our children’s autonomy. Come and be part of the conversation! So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ERIKA: Hello everyone! I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully, and I’m ed by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia. And today, we’re diving into another unschooling stumbling block, which is transitional ages and seasons. And I’m really excited for this conversation. But before we begin, I wanted to give a quick plug to the Living Joyfully Network, which has really been life-changing for me in so many ways. On the Network, we have amazing discussions about so many topics, since our community has such a wide variety of experiences. And I just love the community so much, because everyone there is really learning and growing and being so intentional with their families. And I think it can just be such a wonderful , especially during this back-to-school season, when questions and fears sometimes come up. And so, if you’d like to learn more about the Network and check it out for yourself, you can visit livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on the community tab. We also have a link in the show notes. And we would love to meet you! So, Pam, would you like to get us started? PAM: Sure. I absolutely would. And yeah, I am really looking forward to diving into these transitional ages and seasons. Because in our experience, we have really seen it play out in many, many different unschooling families over the years that there are patterns of these transitional seasons or ages as our children just move through these different stages of their lives. And these can be challenging times for our child and for us as things change. Because change is a constant, but also a challenge, because we’re figuring new things out. And I just want to mention, it’s less about actual ages. We’re not going to say, at this age or at this age, what your child should be doing. But it’s more about when the particular child experiences the shift. And that these shifts are part of life. So, that’s why we really wanted to dive into them. And we thought we’d start with the transition from toddler to child. And now, thinking back, it’s been a while now, but with younger kids, a lot of our time and effort is taken up with hands-on care, from changing diapers to making food, to managing toys and games, and keeping them occupied. And their learning is quite transparent. We see them exploring their environment. We see them learning how to use their toys. We see them learning how to eat, learning how to talk, walk, like all those pieces. So, as they start to get a little bit older, they typically need less hands-on care. And it becomes more about ing them as they pursue their curiosity and their interests. And while it can still be busy for us, because we’re shifting from keeping them alive to being more engaged in the activities that they want to do day to day, it can be a bit of a challenge for us to notice that, to start giving them that space to make some more choices that they might be interested in. So, in the past, we’ve been able to help them and it’s just flowed. And now they might be more resistant. And we may start to recognize that they may think or want to do things differently than us. It’s just really fascinating. And it can be tricky for us also, because they are still so much in the moment. They want to play this thing, they want to do this thing. They are right there. And we need to spend a lot of time learning about each other and just finding our rhythms, because it’s less when we bring the food out. Now they can be more actively saying, I’m hungry now. Just all those little pieces. Or, I’m not tired. Now that they’re more verbal, they have more ways to express their feelings and their thoughts and so, we learn to step back a little bit and work with them and learn more about them. And it’s a really fun time, but definitely can be a transition. ANNA: Right. And I think, with the younger kids, with babies and toddlers, I mean, it’s such an intense time. Because we’re tired and we’re maybe not getting much sleep. And it is a lot about just keeping this little human alive. And there’s so much joy there and so much delight. And this transition happens and our days look a little bit different and we can start to recognize that pushback. So, I love the way you said that. Because I think especially for those of us who are doing a lot of the caretaking of the children, we’re just so connected to those babies and toddlers in many ways. And it’s such a dependent relationship. And then you start to see that independence and agency asserting itself and they do look at the world a little bit differently. And then we start seeing that people are different. And honestly, I believe even babies and toddlers will assert themselves, but it does have a different feel to it. When getting a little bit older, and I think for those of us who we’re talking about in an unschooling environment, when it becomes that more typical school age or preschool age, we start to kind of go, wait. Should we be doing these things or should it look a different way? I read John Holt really early on. He was influential in my journey with this. And I love just looking at that toddler and very young child and seeing how much they were learning and seeing how natural it was to learn a language and cultural expectations and understandings and all of these pieces and recognize that that’s just something as humans we can carry through. But I think it is important to watch in ourselves, are we bringing something to it? Because it’s like, okay, now they would be meeting this milestone, or they should be doing this or this, looking externally versus looking at the child in front of you. So, I think there’s a lot of things that go on with this transition, both in our heads and for the actual child that’s growing and changing. ERIKA: I definitely found that to be true. I have strong memories of my oldest turning 2, 3, 4, and just having these feelings of, I’m supposed to be doing something, that he needs to be really learning now. Like, it’s time. And I mean, really that was just all because of the culture that I was surrounded by. When I started hearing that the friends are going to school or different things like that. And so, it was interesting to see that in myself and be like, on one hand I am seeing all the learning that he is doing, and our lives are great and fine. And then on the other hand, these fears are popping up of, but should he be doing this? And so, I think that transition from toddlers to children for me felt like having kids on my body at all times to now being able to watch them. They’re not right on me, but I’m watching them do things. And I just having long days of sitting and watching them explore things and setting things out for them to explore and it’s a different phase of life. And you see all the changes that they’re going through in their brains and just in what they want to do and seeing their personalities come out and their voice, like you were saying, Pam. Now they’re able to really tell us about their feelings, tell us about their ideas. And so, as that begins, it’s a big transition for us as parents, because we go from really just caretaking and responding to physical needs and things like that, to now it’s another person and it’s this relationship of like, what do they need and what do I need, what do they want to do, and what can I do? What do I have the capacity for? So, yeah, that was a big transition age for me, and I loved it. ANNA: Yeah, all the different times and seasons are so fun and interesting and so much to learn for myself and for kids. And so, now we’ll move into the next phase which is a bit broad, but that older child to pre-teen, because so much is happening during that time as well. And I found, and as Pam was talking about our experiences with probably thousands of families at this point, age eight and nine seemed to be a big transition age for kids in of, you went from that toddler to being engaged in the moment doing things and really just having fun and playing. And then there’s something about eight, nine where for some kids it’s the first hints that we’ll see other phases of this as they get older. But the first hint of, there’s this bigger world and am I safe? And what’s happening? And I love the way you said it too, Erika, it’s like we’re tending to these physical needs and some emotional needs, too. But I think it starts getting more complex as we get to that eight to 10. It’s the beginning of that and then it amps up even more in of just how they relate to other people. They’re curious about that. They see other people. They’re not quite as focused in the moment in front of them as more understanding of social dynamics and other things that are happening. And so, this age is the start of that. And so, I think it’s interesting, because in so many ways it’s less hands on and then in other ways it actually gets more intense as they get older in of, the stakes seem a little bit higher or the conversations are a little bit more intense. So, I’m interested about to talk about this stage, too, because this one also leads us into the start of hormones as well. PAM: Yeah. I do that season as they do start to like, just notice there is more than like the family. And there’s this bigger world out there, and it is really interesting to put the focus on helping them as they figure it out. As we talk about so much, there is this way that our culture is, it’s almost like exposure therapy, as in, as they’re noticing these things, we want to help them get used to it. Because yes, you are going to be seeing people. Yes, you are going to be going out and doing these things. That is what life’s about. So, if you are struggling with that, let’s do that more so you get used to it. Versus helping them process and move through the transition at their speed. We had times when somebody did not want to be going out. They wanted to be staying home. They felt much more comfortable there. And that outside world was looking a bit scary to be out and about, and even maybe fears of other people, people in their family being out and about. They’re starting to recognize, or they’ve had some experiences with people ing on or things like that, or accidents happening, that they’re becoming cognizant of some more of the risk as well, so it really was a time of change. And again, it differs per child. But we have definitely seen that pattern where anxiety and stress comes with recognizing that bigger picture. So, to be able to quiet those outer voices and really focus on our child and help them through the experience and stages, to be there processing, too. I that was a time when we were just pulling into our comfort zone. We were cocooning sometimes and really just making their space comfortable for them, because I didn’t want to put more anxiety and more stress on top of what they were already processing and trying to work through. The more I could get rid of all of that, then the more they could sit with what they were feeling about that new piece, the bigger world, bigger stuff happens out there, all those pieces. So, just to give them the space to sit with that without loading school on top of it, without loading all the stress of making them do these things. It was just so very helpful. And yes, a pretty darn common thing, I think. ERIKA: Yeah. I feel like it comes up for some families as, I don’t know what’s going on with my kid. Something is different. Something has changed. They’re not having fun doing the same things they used to. There’s maybe an increased seriousness that can happen sometimes with kids in that age. But it makes sense. It’s just that increased awareness of everything, putting themselves into some kind of place in the world. And so, that’s big and it’s a lot of big thoughts that can come up. And so, I feel like I want to mention now, though it applies to every stage, just the idea of meeting the child in front of you each day rather than coming to them with, I know who you are. Don’t write the story of who they are. Just see who you’re going to meet today. Because there are these transitional times where you don’t really know what to expect. And to give them this space to just be who they are each day is really amazing for them. That it’s okay. It’s okay that some days they wake up and they have a lot of fears and anxiety about things, or they wake up and they’re like, I don’t think I want to do the same game that I’ve been really having fun with. It doesn’t seem as fun to me right now, and I’m not sure what I want to do next. Those kinds of feelings of, I’m not as interested in what I used to be interested in, can sometimes almost feel like a, “What’s wrong with me?” kind of moment for a child. And so, us being there with patience and understanding and validation of, this happens and it’s happened to me and it’s common and it’s normal and we have plenty of time, like we talked about in the last episode, to let new things bubble up. And as you grow, as we all grow and change, our interests will change. Our mind, our brains will change. We’ll get new ideas and new things, new feelings about our lives. And so, yeah, I found that time to be super interesting with my kids. But now we’re a little bit beyond that. So, are you ready for teenagers? Should I move on to teen? ANNA: I think we can. ERIKA: Okay, so, my youngest is now 13, my oldest is 15. So, this young teenager age, I feel like does seem to flow and make sense from that eight, nine, becoming aware of the bigger world. Then we come into this young teenager age. But there is something special about adolescence that is different than that preteen phase and a lot of new feelings come up. A lot of brain development happens. A ton of brain development happens. And so, it really can, in many cases, feel like, who is my child? Who is this person? It’s like meeting a new person. Not everyone is quite so dramatic, but for me, I do feel like there were huge things that were like, okay, I thought you were like that and now you’re like this. And so, I have been reading this book by Dr. Dan Siegel called Brainstorm, which is about the adolescent brain. And so, he says adolescence is from maybe 12 years old to 24. So, it’s really quite a long period of this really expanding brain, changing brain. And a couple of the things that he mentions that are special about teenagers are this emotional spark. So that’s that moodiness that we talk about with the hormones and, just lots of strong emotions. Maybe we feel sometimes like we’re back in the toddler days of “tantrums” or feeling strong emotions, where they’re just overtaken with emotion. Social engagement becomes a lot more important to them. Novelty seeking and then creative exploration, which is what we see in teenagers. And so, I don’t know. I really am loving this phase. I’ve heard a lot from other unschooling parents that the teenage years are just so, so much fun, because we are giving the kids space to really figure out who they are rather than trying to control and direct their path. And I think that that feels, so far to me, like the key to this phase. ANNA: Yeah. The no expectations, because I actually loved having teens. I loved teens even before I had teens. So, I was kind of excited, because I just think teens are so amazing. They’re thinking all the time about all these different things and they have all these cool ideas and new perspectives. They haven’t been weighed down by time like the rest of us have. And so, it’s really fun to really get into that. But I do want to say, I also probably did the most work on myself during that time, in that I had to separate myself in of recognizing that they’re on their own journey and I can’t control that journey. When we have this baby that we can pop in the sling and go, we are their comfort because that’s all they want is to be close to us. And that’s it. It’s harder when there’s things we can’t comfort right away. We had some dark times during our teen years and that was okay, too, but it was a lot of work to go, this is okay, this is the human experience and I want to be here. And like you said, just meeting the person in front of me with unconditional love and acceptance along the way. But there are a couple of broader things I just want to throw out. I have two girls. They’re old now. But I’ve seen a lot of girls in that age and that particular age can be really intense. And I think it can be for boys, too, but it seems to play out a little bit differently. And maybe it’s just personalities more than gender, but that kind of 12 to 15, 16 age can be intense, because they’re pulling away, they’re coming back, they’re pulling away, they’re mad, there’s all the hormones. Their bodies are changing dramatically. It’s a really intense and challenging time. And the moment I got caught up in myself about it was when we had trouble, like if I’m making it about me or I’m getting my feelings hurt or those kind of things. That’s where we would derail. When I just recognize, this is really hard. What they’re experiencing and learning about themselves and about the world is really hard and if I could give space for that, it just made it so much easier. And again, easy is relative. But what I also found is they do come out of the other side of it. Because I do feel like there were dramatic personality changes that I noticed during that time as they’re trying things on and figuring out who they are and getting a little bit more moody and dark, and then they come out of it and you’re like, oh, this is cool because it’s bits of the child that you knew and it’s bits of this younger teenager that you saw developing. And then it’s bits of this older person that will come. And it’s such a special experience. I think we get, as unschoolers and choosing to be together all of this time, to see that human development in that way and it’s just really special. And I think if we don’t get caught up in the expectations or trying to tunnel in, it can make a really big difference. PAM: I loved your point of the different parts of it, the pulling away, the more out and about, and then the coming in, the out and in, knowing that there’s a safe space to come back to and recenter and reground. But what was really interesting was, for me anyway, you can feel like, okay, they’re teens, they’re pretty self-sufficient now. They can get their own food, they can go to sleep and they can get dressed, all those pieces, and they’re going out and about more. And so you can kind of feel like, oh, okay, now I’m not needed so much and I can go out and do all the things. But what I learned was, and we’ve talked about this before, but I found I was actually needed just as much during this time, but it looked different because it wasn’t a day-to-day, ongoing need. It was more like not needed for a day, a week, a month, three months, and then needed every day for another period of time as they came back in and they were processing and they were figuring stuff out. That’s why I think it’s so much about our work for ourselves at this time, because the questions aren’t, how do I do this? I want to go do this thing. Can you pick up this thing for me? So, it was less about interests and more about themselves and processing who they want to be and how they fit into the world, and how they engage with other people and the work to separate ourselves and to really be able to see it through their eyes and understand who they are and who they’re wanting to become, and not judging that. As they’re trying on different, maybe different personality pieces, maybe just different lenses to see something and go, oh my gosh, I would never have that take on that situation, but they aren’t owning that. It’s not like, they’re looking at it this way, so therefore that’s the way they’re going to look at it forever. No, they are exploring, exploring. They’re learning. They’re trying things on, they’re figuring stuff out. So, when we can separate feeling like we are being judged by them and we can just really see them for who they are and, like you’re saying, who is this person this morning? That’s okay, because they are just trying on so many things and putting things together. And as you were saying, as they come out the other side, they’re picking up what resonated. Like, I missed that part of me as a child. Because maybe they’re ignoring it for a while and they’re trying other pieces. But they might realize they miss that piece of and think, that’s something I want to bring with me as I move forward. And I found this new piece and I really like that. And right now I want to to mix that in. So, yeah, you never know what mix you’re going to get each day, which was just so curious and fun. And it was just so interesting and fascinating to tag along and learn all the different things that they were pursuing, they were trying on. Also, absolutely not easy at times, but when it wasn’t easy, that felt like time for me to work on myself. It’s also not easy for them, so understanding that. Then I also not only work on myself, not bring me in it, but to be able to help them process and move through that, whether they’re internal processors or external processors. For an internal processor, maybe it’s me giving them space, maybe it’s me just showing extra care during that time. And after they’ve processed it internally, being open and available for any conversation they want to have at that point. Or the external processor is talking about it again and again and over and over and over and over, so it’s so different for each child. It’s so different for a child at different points. It’s a beautiful, beautiful season. And I don’t like thinking about as hard, but it kept me on my toes. It kept me reminding myself who I wanted to be. It kept me just being open, being curious, being empathetic, and just seeing through another person’s eyes and that has never steered me wrong, child, teen, or adult. ERIKA: I had something pop in my mind while I was thinking about that. I my mom recently talking about my teen years. All three of us, my brother, sister and I, are really close in age and so, she had a lot of the intensity of teenagehood all at once together. And she said that, at first, it was really shocking how much our emotions, our kind of emotional explosions had suddenly increased, and it just felt like it was all the time this heightened emotion. And so, at first, she was getting amped up with us, like we were angry, and so, then she’s trying to meet us there and she’d get angry and upset and we’d like have these fights, arguments, or whatever. And then, she said, “But then I realized how quickly you would move through that emotional outburst and I would still be sitting here like, what just happened? And still feeling upset.” And she’s like, “So, I just stopped going on the emotional ride and I was just like, they’re okay.” And so, I think that’s like that not taking it personally, and letting them have their experience, but not getting worked up into it where it’s like I have to solve everything or I need to get myself all worked up and heightened. And so, being that calm presence, being there at the end of it, being there to through it, those things are super important to me with my teens now. ANNA: I like the rollercoaster analogy. It’s like we can be right there next watching and being there when they get off, but we don’t have to ride that, because honestly, I did do that at times and ended up feeling like I’d been run over by a truck. Then they’re off doing fine. And I’m like, wait a minute. And so, then I had that recovery time, but it wasn’t my journey. It wasn’t mine to do. But I could still be there. And that reminded me of something that came up as you all were talking is just the connection and ing autonomy and agency we do when they’re younger really lends itself to this time, because that foundation is so helpful during the teen years. Because as they go off, they do come back and when something happens that doesn’t feel great or off or whatever, they know that there’s no judgment and that they can talk about it and that we’ll be there. And I think that was such an important part for me, because I felt they were safer that way. Because some people worry about safety in this and I felt so good about our connection that I knew they would come back if they needed something and I was there with that unconditional, loving presence. And so, that’s what I wanted to work on. I wanted to make sure I was doing the work for myself that I could show up in that way. And I thought it helped us through those times, because again, there’s a lot lability and the going off and coming back. It’s a really beautiful time though. And again, I learned so much about myself and I learned so much just about being in relationship with other humans. PAM: I know. I think so. And I think it’s also just to point out, too, when we talk about it. Feeling good, et cetera, but it’s not about, oh, I’m feeling good and ultimately they’re gonna make choices that I’m comfortable with. No, and that’s what I think as you were, were talking there, Anna, I too felt like the relationship and the connection was the foundation that I needed and the nonjudgmental environment. It doesn’t mean therefore I have to agree with every choice that they make. I can say, I would never make that choice. That choice like just fills me with discomfort. Yet, seeing through your eyes, I can see how they got there. Even if they wouldn’t make that choice again. It’s not being totally comfortable with every choice that they make or everything that they do, but knowing or feeling that they have a space that they can come back to, even when they’re like, holy crap, this did not go the way I was expecting. Off they went towards something or this relationship that they thought would go one way and it went completely sideways. It’s not about them being totally happy with how things go and us being totally happy with how they’re moving through their days. But that foundation of the relationship, so that they know there’s a place they can come to, to process that, to talk about that, where they can get and help and ideas for moving through for where they find themselves now. I think that, foundationally, is what we found to be helpful so that they didn’t feel like, now, I’ve screwed up and I’m on my own. Which just means there’s a much greater chance that it’s just going to keep going more and more sideways. So, they find the spot where it’s like, oh, okay, I think I need some input. I think I would like some help, whatever. Whether it’s just conversation or like, come pick me up. Any of those moments that we have that relationship where they at least feel comfortable enough to do that. Okay. So, are we ready? Oh, you want to add more? ANNA: Okay. I think I’m going to do this here and I’m a little bit worried it may go sideways, but we’re going to try, because this is something I heard a really long time ago and there are parts of the language of it that I don’t love, but it actually was helpful to me. And that was, when we’re looking at the learning of unschooled children as they grow, I somebody saying, and this was 25 years ago probably, that in the beginning when they’re young and they’re toddlers and they’re young, they are ahead. You see them. They’re just learning machines. You see the learning. It’s so easy to see all the things that they’re learning and doing, and you just see like, wow. They’re not being pinned in by first grade that you have to do. They’re learning about bones and paleontology and all these things when they’re young. And then there’s this middle age where they look more behind and basically it’s because there’s a lot of language at school, in of particular math functions or these kind of things that actually don’t apply to everyday life. They’re things that we aren’t even using now. And so, our kids, when they’re in that kind of middle age that we’re talking about now, this kind of preteen, early teen age, they’re just diving deep into their interests, which may or may not include the quadratic equation that the neighbors are talking about. And so, then it’s like, oh, okay, are they behind now? And then this next phase that we’re about to go to, Pam, with this kind of older age. You see like, oh wow. What they know is how to learn, how to figure things out, how to be in the world, how to be in relationship, how to go and pursue the things that they’re interested in, because that’s what they’ve been fostering all along. And so, then they look ahead again, because then you’ve got these people that are struggling in college, because they were supposed to go there, but they don’t know what they want to do and they don’t really have a sense of who they are. And so, I don’t know. It was kind of helpful for me and I’ve seen it play out over the years. And it’s part of what we talked about last time in the Plenty of Time episode. It’s a long game. And so, if you’re taking any slice along the way, whether it’s, oh, look how much they know, and how amazing, if you’re hanging on to those external pieces, you’re going to find yourself not in the best place. But if you look at it as a long game of like, what’s happening? Am I showing up for this person that’s showing up in front of me? Are we connected? Am I facilitating? Are we living our life? I just wanted to share it, because it was interesting and helpful to me at different times. So, I’m putting it out there and now we can go down to you. ERIKA: Well, I was just going to say, it’s like a description of the outside messages that we’ll receive, The outside messages we’ll receive when they’re so little are like, oh my gosh, they’re so amazing. And then as they get bigger, but do they know the math? All these times tables or whatever. And then, the next one is like, wow, this young adult is so amazing. So, the outside messages that we receive at these different transition times are so strong and so particular and so cultural. And so, it’ll trigger those memories in us, of us at those different ages. And it just brings up so much. So, this is our internal work to do to put it all in perspective. ANNA: It’s a long game to put it all in perspective. That’s what I wanted to get from it, because I think there’s value to understanding that those messages are rooted in something different and we’re looking at it in a very different way. This is a long game, this whole human experience. PAM: Yes. And depending on when you start unschooling, you get all those early messages like, oh man, that’s amazing, and everything. And it can really throw you for a loop when it’s like, okay, now they’re talking about their science experiments and their more detailed math and all those pieces. The curriculum changes to what is apparently more advanced, et cetera. Our child is into whatever their interest is and maybe that interest looks schoolish, but maybe it doesn’t. So, it’s so helpful and fascinating for us to, again, do that personal work to see, are we using those external messages to validate ourselves and our choice to do this? Because that’ll eventually shoot you in the foot at some point one way or the other. This last transition we are talking about is teen into young adult years. I loved your adolescence piece, Erika, up to the age of 24. I can totally see that. And I will put in the show notes a link to our podcast episode earlier about What’s So Magical About Age 18? because that is a whole other world of outside messages that come up during this transition. Like, okay, but what about college? But what job are they getting? All those pieces that that can come up and it’s yet another stage of work for us to do. But also, back to ing our kids. And the thing is now they’ve hit an age where they too hear all those messages. So, there’s processing sometimes for them to do as well. But also, maybe they’ve found their thing, but also they’re still exploring. Again, it doesn’t need to be, oh, you’re 18 and now you need to look like this. It’s like, oh my gosh. You can keep being you because you are awesome and to be able to them through that. If you find yourself being buffeted around by outside messages, those are clues. It’s like, okay, I need to do some work and figure out why I’m being affected by all these outer messages and find that foundation. Because unschooling, from my blog posts to these hundreds of podcast episodes, it really is about being a human in the world. It really is. It eventually, quickly, becomes not really about school at all. School or not school isn’t really the fundamental question. So, just to help them and them and engage with them as they make these transitions and it’s not really age-dependent. It really is to do with the person and what they want to explore next. And the piece of personality is so interesting. We’ve got lots of years to look back on. And we can start to see the threads. When you were interested in that thing, I thought it was about that thing, but really it was just about this slice of that thing and now I can see how you grabbed these various slices and brought them together and now I can see how you’re wanting to move forward in this direction. It’s super interesting and fascinating. And also we’re not going to label you and say, now you are this for the rest of your life. It is a really fun stage. But again, there’s just so much. There’s so much with moving out. There’s so much with college. Doors aren’t closed, either, as much because we don’t have that expectation that at 18 you do this and then you do this. It’s much more about them feeling it out and seeing what feels good for them, and I hesitate to say, feels good for them, because for people listening that might be like, oh, well they’re not going to do anything hard if they’re only going to do what feels good. But that’s not really what it is. Because it can feel good to do really challenging things, because I want the thing on the other side. So, doing things that feel good doesn’t mean that they’re always easy, which I think people can equate with, especially in the young adult years. It’s easy maybe to make the culturally acceptable choices and there’s processing in making other kinds of choices. But man, sometimes those other choices just fit that person like a glove. ERIKA: Yeah. I really do recommend that other episode for sure, because that was a really good in-depth conversation of this age period. But just what comes to mind for me is that learning is lifelong. There’s no finish line. I think I talked about on that one the idea of, how’s this child going to turn out when they’re an adult? That idea. It’s not about turning out, because we’re all still learning and growing and changing and so, I’m still turning out. I feel like that’s the thing to keep grounding in when we have the young adult children. It’s just like, you still have all the options. You still are allowed to grow and change and there’s no one right way. ANNA: And that’s the piece for me, too. And I love that you mentioned the threads, Pam, because I even think about my own life and the different jobs and careers and interests that I’ve had over my 55 years. It’s like, oh, there are these interesting threads. And I think that can be really cool. But it didn’t always look traditional. It didn’t always look like what they sell you, that you’re going to go to college and get one job and you’ll have a job until you retire. This is not really how it works anymore, even for our generation, and much less so for the people behind us. And I think that is something that I really have enjoyed watching. And when you were talking about it feels good, I mean, I will say there’s been times for both of my adult kids that hasn’t felt good. They’re trying to figure out like, I don’t know, this doesn’t feel good. What do I want to do? And that’s part of it, too, because I’ve been there as well. What do I want to do next? Does this make sense? Am I happy in in the choices that I’ve made? How do I want to do it? And so, what I love and what I’m trying to just leave space for them to see is that yeah, that’s life. We have these opportunities and these times and we can figure things out. And if we don’t like it, we can switch and pivot. In the work that I do now working with individuals and couples and families, I see so many older adults that are not so happy that really have gone along someone else’s path and it didn’t serve them. And so, I do think this time for our kids who are growing up into adulthood and figuring it out, it can be bumpy still. But there’s a connection piece that’s different and there’s just this understanding that there’s not one right way and that we can try different things and that that’s okay. There’s no judgment about that. And so, that piece I really love about what we can bring to everyone, because I think really everyone wants that unconditional love and acceptance. And so, I love being able to offer that to these teens and young adults where it can feel so fraught. I have a client right now who is in college about to graduate and, oh my gosh. I just feel for her. She has a traditional mainstream upbringing, but it’s not even that. It’s just it’s such a big, weighty time. She’s putting so much weight on everything. And when I’m introducing to her the idea of, it’s okay for you to change your mind, like you could do that for a little while and then change your mind. She’s like, what? And so, I love just introducing that idea to all of us, that we don’t have to bring so much weight to everything. I think my kids taught me that, too, when they were little, like, we don’t have to bring so much weight to all the decisions. We can learn and pivot no matter what happens. ERIKA: I had one other thing pop into my mind, which is, for all these different transitional ages and these seasons that we go through, sometimes there could be something that feels really challenging, and so, we resist it or we want them to get through that phase, get through that season, or, “I just can’t wait till the next age, because this is so challenging.” You know what I mean? And we’ve talked about this on the Network so many times and probably on the podcast too, but just the idea that nothing lasts forever, but being okay with it lasting forever is often the key for it to be able to change. So, the more we’re holding onto, I just hope they change, sometimes the less likely it is for them to move through that. And so, I think we can do that for ourselves as adults when our lives are challenging and we’re going through a hard time, but we can also do it when our kids are going through a hard time. Just coming to that acceptance of, even if this lasts forever, we’re going to make it through and sometimes, just that release can help bring a different mindset. You give yourself space to be more open and curious about what can happen. ANNA: Yeah. We’re exactly where we need to be. PAM: Exactly. And I love that you brought that up, because that has been my experience. When things would just get so like, oh my gosh, when is this going to be over? Not that I’m saying that to them, but I’m feeling it. When I can get to a place of, the world isn’t over even if it’s like this forever, then I can release the need for change and get back to that openness and see. All of a sudden, I see more possibilities with things being this way. And it might be magic, but that energy I have with them and my engagement with them obviously must be different somehow. Even if I feel like I’m not really saying anything different, the energy that I’m bringing to it is, because so often, yes, that felt like it was the catalyst in them being able to release, too. We must have been energetically stuck with each other and now they could release anything they were feeling from me and just really feel into themselves and they would find like just a new baby step in a new direction. It’s fascinating to see an action, isn’t it? All right, so I think we have covered this one enough. I want to thank everybody very much for ing us. I hope you found something interesting in this conversation. I really enjoyed talking about the different seasons alongside each other, because then we get to see the threads that are common to these different stages, even though they can look very, very different. And please to check out the Living Joyfully Shop and the Living Joyfully Network, because I know Erika talked about how much she loved that, but I know Anna and I do, too. There are amazing families in there. And it is just like, our kids are long grown adults and we still find it just so fascinating to be engaging with parents who are intentional and who’ve had wide ranging different lives and experiences. So, it is a lovely place. And we definitely invite you to us there and we wish everyone a lovely week. Talk to you soon. Bye bye!

In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about one of Anna’s favorite sayings, “There’s plenty of time.” This mindset shift is so helpful in many different circumstances, making it a very useful tool! We talk ing it in busy moments, when thinking about learning and child development, and even in more urgent situations. This mindset shift to “there’s plenty of time” can help can help bring clarity and calm and shift us out of fear-based tunnel vision. We had a lot of fun talking about it and we hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey! THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Unschooling Wobbles, coaching calls, and more! The Living Joyfully Network Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram. Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling. Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling? We invite you to us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation! So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT PAM: Hello! I’m Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully, and I am ed by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. Hello to you both! ANNA AND ERIKA: Hello! PAM: So, today we are going to dive into the mindset shift that has been invaluable to me over the years, and that’s that there’s plenty of time. It is something that I still regularly need to remind myself, particularly when challenging times arise. Because what it does is it helps me transition out of the tunnel vision that fear or challenge inspires in me. It’s like, oh my gosh, this thing happened. I’ve got to fix it. I’ve got to move as quick as possible. And it helps me get out of that mode and into more open and curious, so that I can lean more into the situation, into what’s actually going on, who’s involved. Because truly, even though so many things that go sideways feel like emergencies, they’re not. So, that is what we are going to be diving into. But before we do that, we just want to invite you to check out the Living Joyfully online shop. There are courses, my books are there. There’s coaching options that are already all available. And this fall, we will be adding calendars as well as a new book, an audio book that I am putting together of all the talks that I’ve given over the years, and some audiobook editions of my existing books. I’ve got some more of those. Anyway, we are really enjoying creating a one-stop shop to you as you navigate relationships with your loved ones and deep dive into your unschooling journey. And you can follow the link in the show notes or just go to livingjoyfullyshop.com. And now, Anna, since I learned about this mindset shift from you many, many years ago, would you like to get us started? ANNA: I would! Yeah, it is funny, because so many people associate this with me. Actually, a friend from the Network made me this card. So, if you’re on YouTube you’ll see this. Maybe we can post it. But it’s this really nice little embroidery on a card that says Plenty of Time, because I say it so often. And it’s just because of me, because I really need to. We live in a culture that has a really strong sense of urgency and brings sense of urgency to everything from academics to when you’re in the medical system to when you’re just in your day to day, and with growth and development or anything. There’s just this imposed sense of urgency. And I think my personality just really gets caught up in that. I’m kind of a go go gal anyway. And so, I just get going and I just have this urgency. And what I’ve found is that in some arenas, it serves me. I get a lot of things done. But in relationships, it was really causing problems, because I was rolling over people and not really getting to know them or understand or take the pause that I needed to to really understand a situation. I was making assumptions. I was looking at it through my eyes only. And a lot of times, it felt like things were so off or were having a big conflict and years ago, I was like, what’s happening? Why is this? Why is this feeling hard? And then I recognized, then I brought this mantra in for myself. It’s like, there’s plenty of time. I don’t have to solve everything right now. There really isn’t a sense of urgency. It’s so often just manufactured. And as soon as I say that to myself, okay, there’s plenty of time, I just feel my energy come down. I just feel so much calmer and then I’m really able to use the other tools that we talk about so often, just listening and validating and leaving space and all of those pieces. And so, it comes into play in so many ways. So, it’s going to be fun to talk about it and see what it means to the two of you, but that’s really what it is for me. It’s about shedding that sense of urgency that I’ve been handed and can get caught up in, but especially bringing it into relationships and problem solving. Because everybody feels so much more comfortable and seen and calm. And what I’ve found is that when I can bring that calm to a situation, it just changes it. ERIKA: Absolutely. Yeah. I love the phrase. I love using it. And one thing I really love about it is it applies to everything. Because it really is just about calming myself. And so, it doesn’t matter if I’m doing future tripping, scary things about, this is going to be terrible in five years or whatever, or if it’s just in this moment, we have to get to the meeting or we have to go to the restaurant, or whatever it is. So, it’s all those little day-to-day moments. And also it applies to, why aren’t they reading fluently yet? You know what I mean? How are they going to be able to do their laundry and stuff? So, anytime those fears get in mind, there’s plenty of time, feels like taking a deep breath. It feels like giving myself space to get out of that tunnel vision and get out of that fear vision that I can get into just because of stress of life. And so, I was thinking that part of why we have this urgency, or maybe it’s a symptom, but in school, right? So, you do a class and then the bell rings and you’d have another class, and then the bell rings and you have another class. And so, we get trained into this, onto the next thing, onto the next thing. Like we should always be moving forward with this quickness. And so, the plenty of time idea to me feels so good and healthy and it’s like giving a gift to my kids to give them space to not say, okay, onto the next thing. Onto the next. Like, that’s enough of that, let’s move on. There’s plenty of time. They can spend as much time as they need on what they want to do. And we don’t have to be in a rush and fall into that sense of urgency. PAM: I love that you brought that school lens to it, too, because as you were talking there, it reminded me not just from class to class to class, but how much of our lives in school are timed. Tests are timed. Everything that you do is pointing towards, I need to do this quickly. The quicker I can fill out my test, the more of it I’ve done and the higher mark I get. Doing things quickly is held up as the goal, right? So, it is a surprisingly big shift to release that need, that urgency, to dig into why it feels urgent. Is it because I just want to do it fast so that I look like I did it successfully? And then for me, another piece, or another layer as I pulled back that urgency thing, it was, I discovered more often than not, it was because I was feeling uncomfortable in the situation. So, there was discomfort and it was more about trying to make myself comfortable again in whatever the situation was. I wanted to solve it fast so that I looked good, but also I was uncomfortable with this nebulousness or this unsolved piece of our lives. And so, getting more comfortable with discomfort, not seeing discomfort as a bad thing, but seeing it as just like part of the process it, I came to see it was where I could get to that curious thing. Now, if I just sat there and did nothing and just tried to pretend that it would go away, my discomfort was just extended. And then we just got more and more uncomfortable, because we weren’t really talking about it, and we weren’t really making any movement forward. I was going to say progress, but then that brings in judgment to it. But it’s that idea. But it was so valuable to me to be able to take that step back, to be able to say, you know what? I can sit with this discomfort for a while. I can get curious, I can learn more things. Like you were saying, Anna, we learn so much when we actually start looking at the people involved and observing their reactions, actually hearing what they’re sharing. Actually processing enough for myself so I can share what I’m feeling or thinking in a way that isn’t judgmental about what other people are feeling, but just another thread through the situation. Because the other valuable piece of that is then other people don’t feel so defensive, like they have to dig in and defend whatever their perspective is or whatever direction they are thinking they’d like it to unfold. And we can just release a lot of that tension so that we can have just more conversations around it. But if we don’t think there’s plenty of time to have those conversations, we’re like, okay, like this is the best solution. This is our fastest way. You’ll like this. Trust me. And we hold onto that so tightly. Even if we don’t force people to do it, our energy comes with, this is the best solution. And in our conversations, we’re picking out the pieces that align with that. Oh yes, you said this, see that fits with this that I’m wanting to do. And what we’re trying to do is navigate everybody else to come to the conclusion that our path was the best versus actually working with each other. But that takes time, doesn’t it? ANNA: Right. And I think it’s so helpful to just unpack that idea that faster is better and even an efficiency lens. Because I live with someone who has an efficiency lens about certain things and it’s really interesting to see the rub of that. It’s like, where’s it coming from? What is that idea that the straight path is better, it’s faster? Where does that come from? Because I think in a lot of situations, outside of ourselves, it’s serving someone else. In school, it’s serving just that we’ve got to keep moving and we’ve got to keep getting 30 kids turned out of this and getting them through the test. And I was always that super fast test taker. I’m a super fast eater. I just really bought all into this fast is better and efficiency lens. And again, I think there are times when it serves me, but I really do think I missed a lot in those days. I think I didn’t retain that material, because I really was just quickly going through the test to spit it back out. And what I loved about watching my kids when they were younger and as they grew up was just, it was a richer experience where they really took time with things and made mistakes. We talk about this where it’s like, “made mistakes” is kind of a school concept again, but for them, it was just like, ooh, try this and pivot here and do this. And when you just really embody this sense that there’s plenty of time, there is no wrong way. And with each turn and with each choice that you make, you’re learning something about yourself, about the people that you’re with, even about the particular subject, do I like this? Do I not like this? Do I want to do it a different way? And I just feel like I short-circuited a lot of that learning for myself when I was younger. I feel like my kids gave me that back to just recognize, like, yeah, I just want to slow it down so that I can connect with the people so that I can learn more about myself. I feel like that’s another piece of this is when we’re on that fast track, it can distract us a little bit from looking at ourselves and understanding our own pieces. And I’ve definitely been guilty of that. And so, I feel like as I’ve gotten older, and then as my kids kind of taught me this lesson, it was like, oh, okay. It goes back to what you’re saying, Pam, sitting with discomfort, because sometimes when we’re learning things about ourselves, it’s a little uncomfortable. But learning that, hey, I can sit with this and learn more about myself. And maybe it’s because I’m getting older, but it’s like, now I feel like that’s why we’re here. That’s what this human journey is all about. And so, I love this little quick reminder. Because, like you said, Erika, it’s like taking a deep breath and whew, here we are. ERIKA: Yeah. As you both were talking, I was thinking about life with little kids. I feel like this is where this first came to mind was life with little kids. Because imagine when you go for a walk with a little kid, you take one step out the door and they are looking at something and it just feels like it’s going to take forever, and why are we stopped here? That kind of thing. And so, I feel like, a lot of us have had that experience of like, oh my gosh, my toddler just wants to do this same thing for hours and hours, and how can we get through it? And so, I think that was the beginning of, deep breath. There’s no rush. We don’t have to move on to the next thing. But once you can get in that head space of, there’s plenty of time and let’s just see how things unfold, I don’t need to direct, I don’t need to point out the right way to do something or the thing that I think is important or whatever, and just kind of letting things unfold for our kids. They can learn so much more. They can learn more about themselves, they can learn more about the things that they’re interested in. And so, I think that sense of urgency or that checklist that we might have in our mind of the next thing. Well, they learned how to do this, so then the next thing is this, having that mental checklist and that sense of urgency really gets in the way of them creating their own learning journey. And I think the same thing applies to us. And we had many years of really not knowing that there’s plenty of time and not having the space to learn about ourselves. And so, that deep breath and that time and settling our brains down to be like, it doesn’t have to be the next thing. Just focusing on what’s in this moment and relaxing into this moment, it’s just so powerful. PAM: It’s so powerful. And I just love how you can take this little nugget and apply it everywhere. We talked about relationships. We’ve talked about challenges, talked about learning. It’s just so vastly valuable in all of those spaces to be able to peel back that layer. For me, that’s part of the transition to like lifelong learning from school, curriculum-based learning. There’s plenty of time for that thing to bubble up and there’s plenty of time for them to stay stuck with this one thing that they’re really focused on right now. It just applies everywhere and it’s a valuable little thing just to bring to our days and really explore just that push that we feel. Because we can feel it in so many ways. And as I just think back over my days, it’s just like, okay, this and then this and then this. But truly there is so little that is an emergency. We can take the time to actually engage with it, to sit with it for a little bit. And as you both said, we just learn so much when we do that. I learned so much from watching my kids and I really had to go back to that beginning place and not just figure it out myself, because when I looked to them, I could see it in action. I could see them taking the time and I’m like, oh. Why aren’t they wanting to do this and this? Sometimes I tried offering things, but I was also cognizant enough to, when I got some pushback or just like completely ignored, not to have expectations around things, especially when we bring them to our kids. Because they may be in a place where even though that could be really cool and interesting to them, right now they’re still here. There’s plenty of time for them to notice that thing. So, for me, it’s just like, I can plant a seed and then maybe the next day or the next month or two years down the road, it’s like, hey, when you mentioned this thing? I’d like to hear more about that. So, there’s plenty of time just works in just about any situation. You can use it just about every day in our society. ANNA: It does! And I know sometimes, people will ask, what do I do? I’m frustrated or I’m not showing up in the way I want to. Or, we’re having these conflicts. And they just want to know, what’s going on? What are some options? And I think this piece is really a great place to start. Because I think anytime we’re under time pressure, and I think it’s probably worse for some personalities, mine being one of them, but time pressure builds this feeling like, I want to do a good job, I want to get there on time. All these other outside messages that I’ve had. What I found is, again, I wasn’t showing up as the person I wanted to when I was bringing that sense of urgency under that time pressure. And so, I think it’s a great place to start to just go, okay, so we’re having an interaction, like you were saying, Erika, we’re trying to get out the door or something, and I feel myself like getting a little energy about it, and what if I just change it? And that’s the kind of situation I would use it, in like, you know what? There’s actually plenty of time. And my energy would come down. The kids’ energy would come down. David’s energy would come down. And we’d get out the door. And so, I think it’s just when you find yourself feeling that feeling, especially if there’s a tightness to it, just see how it feels to breathe into, there’s actually plenty of time. Because, like you said, Pam, the amount of times that it’s an actual emergency, you’re not even going to be thinking. You’re going to act. You’re going to pull that kid out of the road. You’re going to do the thing that you need to do. You’re going to take care of the wound. Whatever the thing is happening, that’s an actual emergency. There won’t be time to be getting irritated with people or thinking about what’s happening in your head. So, that’s the clue to me that, wait a minute, this is about me. And what happens if I bring that different energy? ERIKA: I was thinking about the emergencies, too, and honestly it helps then, too. If you feel like you’re freaking out and there are too many things. It’s like, there’s plenty of time. It’s my reminder, too, it’s just one step at a time. So, I know I have these moments, not emergencies, but say I’m hungry and then they’re also hungry. And then also the phone rings. And the dog needs to go out. All these things could pile up in a split second where it felt like everything was fine and now everything is busy. And so, if in that moment when I start to feel myself getting overwhelmed, I could just be like, there’s plenty of time, one thing at a time, one step at a time, it just helps in every situation. PAM: Yeah, it’s true. It really does. And I think it’s just such a great reminder that we have agency, because so often when things like that are piling up on us, we feel like all we can do is react. But I think the shift that there’s plenty of time helps me. It helps me ground. It helps me center. It helps me process a little bit so that I feel more like I’m responding. Because like you’re both saying, when we react, we bring so much negative energy to the situation. And then people start reacting to us, and then it’s just like this ping pong ball of stress that goes back and forth and back and forth and back and forth till we’re all completely frustrated. And somebody says, well then we’re not going. And too bad. But, oh my gosh, when I could to bring that energy of, there’s plenty of time, so that everybody’s energy is down, we would actually get out faster than if I was trying to prod everybody, like literally time-wise faster and feeling so much better, when I wasn’t constantly prodding people and prodding people and instead I was ing, asking, do you need some help with this? Just not getting in people’s way, not constantly poking them. I think when I’m feeling an urgency, I’m poking people and then they’re just like, screw that. Or they’re poking back. ANNA: Putting up a wall. PAM: Exactly. The wall goes up and then we move slower. ANNA: Right. I’m going to repeat something you said, Erika, just because I think it’s so important. I love this. We’re talking about how to use it in these moments, but it’s both, right? It’s using it in those intense moments, but it is also that there’s plenty of time to learn the things that they need to learn. There’s plenty of time for relationships and friendships to develop and grow later on. Because we can get stuck in our heads about, but do they have enough friends or are they doing enough this or this or that? And so, that was another time I found it so valuable was just like, but actually this is a long game. If we’re lucky enough, we have a long life to figure all of these pieces out. And if it’s a short life, then even more I want to be just doing what we love and enjoying each other. So, it really helped calm me from both sides. And so, I love again that it’s useful in these moments and it’s also useful when we get in a spiral that’s a little more, out there, future worry, esoteric. PAM: Yes. Me too. Well, thank you so much to everyone for ing us. We hope that you enjoyed our conversation and even picked up a nugget or two for your unschooling journey and, let’s face it, life and living, because this is just something fundamental, I think, to human beings, or at least to those of us who grew up in that more conventional school-based environment where the pressure came to do things fast and do things right, don’t make mistakes. All that stuff really plays into that fear and that urgency we feel. So, just reminding ourselves that we have plenty of time and playing with that throughout the day in all sorts of situations can really help us see some really fun layers where we can apply it and it can be useful. And to check out The Living Joyfully Shop at, not surprisingly livingjoyfullyshop.com. And we wish everyone a lovely week. Thanks so much! Bye!

We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and we’re talking about how people are different. “People are different” has become a common refrain on the Exploring Unschooling Podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network and for good reason! Once we sink into the reality that people are truly so different—their priorities, their brains, their interests, the way they express themselves, their likes and dislikes, their bodies, their personalities, and so on—it becomes so much easier to assume positive intent and to meet people where they are. We can more easily see through their eyes and understand that there’s no one right way. We’ve been really excited to dive more deeply into this idea. It was a very fun conversation and we hope you find it helpful on your unschooling journey! THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, coaching, and more! The Living Joyfully Network Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram. Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling. Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling? We invite you to us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about ing our children’s autonomy. Come and be part of the conversation! So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ANNA: Hello, I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully, and today I’m ed by my co-hosts, Pam Laricchia and Erika Ellis. Hello to you both. PAM AND ERIKA: Hello! ANNA: Before we get started, I want to encourage you to check out our shop where you can find books, courses, coaching, and information about the Living Joyfully Network, including our new course Four Pillars of Unschooling, where we explore four foundational ideas and paradigm shifts that can help you along your journey. Especially if it’s new and really if not, but especially if it’s new, I think it’s a good framework to start to understand, oh, okay, these are some important paradigm shifts. The shop has resources and for really every stage of your journey and different levels, whether you want some personalized attention with coaching, or if you want to work through some courses, or again, the Network, which gives you a community of people living all over the world. It’s so fun to see their lives and what’s happening with their families. You can find the link in the show notes, or you can visit livingjoyfullyshop.com. So, today I’m very excited. We’re going to be talking about the idea that people are different. And while it sounds simple, it is so layered and not understanding it can definitely be a stumbling block in our relationships. And once you really embrace it, I feel like it becomes so fun just noticing all the ways and finding ways to apply this lens. So, we’re going to have a lot of fun talking about that today. I think it takes some of the mystery and frustration out of other people’s behavior when we recognize, oh, this is a people are different thing. We tend to think everyone sees and experiences the world in the same way, and so when they don’t, it can actually cause some friction. So, I’m very excited to dive into this very broad topic with both of you. Erika, do you want to get us started? ERIKA: I would love to. This might be one of my most favorite topics to talk about these days, and I’m just really excited to see what we are able to touch on today, while also knowing that there will be so much more that we won’t even get to, because it is such a big, rich topic to explore once we start thinking about it. And so, I really think that we started putting that “people are different” lens into words in the past few years because of some deep dives that we have all done individually and together, probably partly inspired by the deep conversations we have on the Network around personalities and learning about the different people there. And I think we can, on a surface level, say, “People are different,” and everyone would agree like, “Well, yeah, of course.” But the deeper stuff, like, “No, people are really different,” can take a while to wrap our heads around. And so, for example, the way our brains work is different and our personalities and temperaments are different. Of course, everyone has different past experiences and maybe past trauma that impacts what they do today, and so that contributes to our differences. Our go-to defense mechanisms and our reactions to things and all the beliefs we have about the world can just be so, so different. That’s not even to mention fun things like our interests and what lights us up, and our bodies and what makes our bodies feel good, our curiosity and what our curiosity leads us to. So, if you just start to think about putting all these different aspects of ourselves together into one complex human, it’s no wonder that so many times we could feel like it’s so hard to communicate or it’s hard to understand why other people are making such different decisions from what we would do, but it’s just because we’re all so different. PAM: We’re all so different. And for me, I just love to keep coming back to this idea, like you were saying, there’s just so many layers to it. Introvert, extrovert, just to grab something that’s pretty common for people to consider. “Oh yeah. They don’t like going out as much.” Or, “They like to be around people all the time.” When you just use that lens on its own, when you bring it to any moment, it can help you understand people a little bit more. It can help you understand that they don’t want to hang out in big crowds for long times, but also, when they’re at home with a small number of people, it’s so energizing. To see that lens in each moment helps you understand their reactions. People are different. Even with an introversion, there are so many differences and layers. What helps them? What kinds of situations are worth it? All those pieces. So, when you just start digging into that a little bit, you find so many nuances. When we first came to unschooling and I first started thinking about this stuff, when my kids made different choices than me, it would not make sense. Like, “But, A, B, C, like of course D!” Until I actually started to look at them as a human being, as a whole human being, understanding that they are truly different from me and understanding that me reaching D as a conclusion and them reaching E as a conclusion are both absolutely fundamentally true. D would work better for me and E would work better for them. So, now how can we work together and find an F that has enough of D and enough of E that we’re all pretty happy with this plan? And off we go down the F path. And then, like you were talking, layer after layer after layer. There is just so much that makes up a human being that can be different from us, and it just helped me not be frustrated, not feeling like, oh, I need to explain this again, because they must not be getting it, because it makes utter and complete sense to me. ANNA: Right. I think that’s what I love about it. And we get at it at different ways, but I feel like this is a really quick thing that comes to mind that pulls me to a place of curiosity, because if I find myself feeling frustrated or like, why are they making that choice? Or if I start taking something personally about the way somebody’s doing something, I can quickly go, wait a minute! Is this a “people are different” thing? And I can just pause a second and give a little bit of space to bring curiosity to it. Because I think we really do so quickly go to thinking that everybody sees the world the same way that we do, and that, “Of course that would be the solution!” And so, yes, over the years we’ve kind of dabbled around these things. “Oh, well, but I’m an introvert and I have this friend that’s an extrovert and she does things differently than I do,” but it’s so much deeper than that. And I love that you touched on it, Erika, too, that we all bring our past traumas, our past history, our past learning. So, it doesn’t even have to be trauma, but a lot of us have some trauma that we’re bringing into the moment. But it’s just our experiences. What was our family like? Where did we grow up culturally? What did we learn? And it’s so interesting when you start having these conversations with people, because it could be things that you wouldn’t even think would be at odds. I was talking to a Network member friend about this, and she really loves walkable cities. And she just said it to me, “But if everybody could live in a walkable city, they would see how amazing it is!” And I’m like, no. I’m like, “If everybody could live in the woods, they would see how amazing it is!” And so, we just laughed about it, because we both are so ionate about the things we’ve learned about ourselves. And I think it ties in with our unschooling journey so well because that’s the environment we want to create, where our kids can learn these things about themselves, have this self-awareness that it took a lot of us a long time to figure out. Because I pushed through a lot of things about myself, because it didn’t maybe fit the mold. And so, then it takes time to realize what’s true for us. And so, I love that environment where we can learn what we like and don’t like, what works for us and doesn’t work for us. How we process something, what we need to be able to process something. Do we need quiet? Do we need noise? Do we need headphones? Pam wears headphones and thinks about things. That’s amazing to me. I cannot have multiple inputs like that as I’m trying to form a thought. I love music and headphones, but not for when I’m thinking or working. So, you can go, “Oh, my kids are listening to music, but I see them doing something.” And for me, before this understanding, I might’ve gone, “They’re not doing anything productive. There’s no way they could be because they’ve got headphones on.” And then I meet Pam and she’s like, “I need to have music going, or other things happening.” And it’s like, oh my gosh, how cool. And so, in that little example that I gave, what I want to watch there is my judgment about it. I want to watch my judgment about someone else, because if I bring curiosity, then I can learn more. “Tell me about that. Do you love listening to the music when you’re doing it? What are you listening to? What feels the best?” And then we connect. ERIKA: I love it so much. And I think we could come up with a million little tiny examples like that. I’m just thinking with the noise and having some sounds going on. Maya says that same thing. She’s like, “It’s too quiet in here. I just need some sounds going on.” And for me, it’s the opposite. But it’s the same thing in so many different areas. And so, one way to approach that with curiosity is to do that paradigm shift of “there’s no one right way.” Because we can get stuck there, like, “I figured out the right way.” Here’s another, more hormonal example. At night, it’s cold. That’s my experience. In the morning, it is hot. That’s also my experience. Now, Josh, he has a completely opposite experience at night. He is dying of heat, but I could try to convince him that doesn’t make sense. It’s cold at night and it gets hot in the morning. And he’d be like, no, that makes no sense. And so, realizing that’s my experience, what I’ve learned from my own life is there is not the one right way. It helps our relationships so much, because it helps us to assume positive intent about another person. It helps us to put our picture of them into greater clarity if we can be open and curious about what they’re telling us about their own experience, rather than going straight to shutting it down by saying, “But I have already figured it out and I already know what’s right.” And so, anything from tiny things like, we’re going outside and they’re saying they’re not hot and I’m saying I am. I mean this temperature difference, it’s seems like a small thing, but it can cause fights in families. Because yeah, we think that our experience should be everyone’s experience, but you could see that could ripple out to what people should eat, the way that they should have their room organized, how they should be spending their time, what time they should wake up, what time they should eat, just every little thing. It’s like, what if we could just be curious about, how does it feel to you? What is your experience in this area? PAM: Yes. I love that, because, for me, the hot/cold is a great example, because that almost feels like a fact. Somebody comes back to us, “I’m cold, people! How can you not be cold? There’s something wrong with you.” And I think that one of the shifts that helped me was, like you were saying, assuming positive intent. They’re not trying to judge me just because their answer’s different. It doesn’t make me wrong. I don’t have to defend myself. I don’t have to get defensive about it. I can be curious about it. It’s like, wow. This room feels so different to each of us. And that is something that we laugh a lot about here, because I run very hot and use no blankets, no nothing at night. And Rocco was all tucked in. But the one I wanted to bring up, too, because examples are just so fun, this was one that was a really useful shift for me when I recognized it, and that was the internal processor and external processor. And that started even before I had kids. Coming to recognize, oh my gosh, how different is that? Somebody wants to talk through it and they’re not telling me what their answer is. They’re just telling me a whole bunch of ideas. It’s like, oh, I don’t need to go prep for that. Because for me, as an internal processor, for the vast majority of things, I’ll think about things, put on my headphones, have a good walk, have a good think. “Yeah, this makes sense, this makes sense, this makes sense.” So, by the time I mention it to somebody else, it’s like, let’s do this. Whereas for other people, more external processors, they want to hear it. They want to maybe get some reaction. They want to talk about it with somebody else. Talk about the five different possibilities to eventually kind of land on the one. So, when they come out with something, I have to , it behooves me to save myself from future disappointment or frustration because I went off and did X, Y, Z to get everything ready for the thing. And they’re like, oh yeah, that was yesterday. ANNA: What was that? Yeah. Right. I work with a lot of couples. And oddly enough, many internal processors marry or partner up with external processors. And this is a very new idea to a lot of people. They’re always so fascinated when I start to talk about it with them. But the key to this working is not taking it personally. So, what can happen is the internal processor goes off to think about the idea that was presented and then the other person, whether this is a child or a partner that goes off, is thinking, “They don’t care about me. They don’t understand. They don’t think this is important. They’re not thinking about this.” Because to them, thinking about an idea and processing it and prioritizing, means talking about it. It means talking about all the iterations, all the different things. For that internal processor when they’re being bombarded by that, they can feel like, you’re not giving me any time. Why are all these ideas coming out? You’re all over the board. And then they’re taking that personally. But as soon as we understand this about each other, and again, this is for kids and partners, it’s like, oh, okay. I need to give them a little bit of space. I presented them with this idea of, what we want to do this weekend? Or, what’s coming up? Or, do we want to try this as a family? Let’s give them some ideas. Because then they’ll come back. Then they’ll come back and want to have a conversation, but they need that time. And when I talk to companies about this, it’s the same. For employers, you’re going to get the best out of your employees when you give them the time to process in the way that they need to process. If we push somebody to do it a different way, we’re not going to get their best, because that’s the whole point is that our brains work differently. And I think when we can celebrate that and not take it personally, it just really, really changes things. So, that piece of not taking it personally is so important. ERIKA: Don’t take someone’s personality personally. Is that what people say? I love that so much. But that was reminding me about where some of this can come from. If you imagine someone creating a curriculum and they’re an external processor, they’re going to say, and then the students should externally process about this is the way that they’ll learn. You can see how that would totally happen, where it’s like., the way that you learn is by speaking your ideas out loud to someone and having them reflect back what they’ve heard. And it’s like, yeah, some people, for some people that works great. And then for others that will be so uncomfortable. And so, I think the message that we can learn through mainstream culture can feel like, okay, we realize that there are differences in people sometimes, but we should try to fix that. Or we should figure out the best way and get people to fit into this mold of whoever is basically in power or in charge and what makes sense to them. And so, we’ve had explorations about all these different personality things, like the Enneagram or Myers-Briggs test, the strengths finder, all these different things that give us more information about how our own brains work. And I feel like once we see, oh, people have come up with these different groupings and you can read them and be like, oh yeah, I’m not like that at all. But there are some people who are. Then it just expanded the possibilities in my mind of what is okay, what is possible, how people are, and it makes it feel like it’s easier to accept other people how they are and, like we were saying earlier, assuming positive intent about what they do. PAM: Accept other people as they are. And also accept ourselves as we are. Because it’s like, oh, I keep trying to fix this, because everybody talks about how bubbly extroverts are just lovely, amazing. And I have bubbly extrovert friends. And also, it’s draining. And you absolutely want to do the thing, but you need the recovery time too. And you may feel bad about that sometimes. And so, seeing how different people can be helps me be like, oh, it’s okay for me to just be me. I don’t need to fix myself to be these different ways, because it’s just okay that we all are different. And then one tool I wanted to bring up that I found really helpful, particularly with my kids is, there was always this phrase to put yourself in someone else’s shoes. And I would try to do that. And I found as I was doing that, as my kids left school, they were home more and I was trying to figure out all this, looking for the learning and the curiosity and what their interests were. And I would find myself putting myself in their shoes and I’m like, A, B, C, I would choose D. And I realized over time that it wasn’t so helpful for me to be in their shoes if I was trying to empathize with them and if I was trying to understand their choices. It wasn’t helping me understand their choices. So, the little tool that worked for me was to see things through their eyes. And when I used that language for myself, it helped me to go into their brain and to what their interests were, to their personality pieces, to how their brain likes to immerse itself in things and how it processes, all these people that are different pieces. It reminded me to bring their pieces in, instead of my pieces. Because me stepping into their shoes was just me putting all my personality and brain into that situation, and of course I’m going to make different choices. But when I could look through their eyes and see what it looked like to them, I came to understand their choices so much better. So, it didn’t seem like something out of the blue. It’s like, oh, of course that would look interesting. Of course, they would make this choice. It just really helped me better understand them. Then I could connect better. I could empathize with them. I could validate. I could their choices with the understanding that me being a different person would make a different choice, but their choice makes complete sense for them. That was a really helpful to tool for me to kind of make that distinction. ANNA: And I think part of that, and it’s kind of what you’re describing, but maybe a little bit different, is just it helps us communicate. So, we talk about narration a lot, but I think when we understand these differences, if I feel like I’m having trouble communicating with someone and maybe I can’t even pinpoint the difference, because I’m still locked into how I’m seeing the situation, I can step back and narrate a little bit to go, okay, so I’m not sure if this is how you’re seeing it, but here’s how it’s feeling to me and here’s what I’m thinking I need to do. It’s less threatening than me trying to direct us to do the thing. It’s opening up for them to say, “Oh wow, no, I don’t see it that way at all. I really think we need to do this,” and then we can have an interesting conversation. But I feel like we can’t even get to that place of communicating if we’re stuck in our story of, there’s one right way. And I love that you mentioned that, Erika, because that’s the key, right? To know there is never one right way. And even with things that seem like, but what about this? Because, like you said, some of these things seem like facts, it’s cold. How is that not a fact? Well, bodies are different, you know? And so, it isn’t a fact. And so, I love that piece of just ing there’s not one right way. We all are so different. So, I’m going to slow my communication down a little bit. I’m going to say a little bit more about what’s happening in my mind, especially with the people I want to be in close relationship with, because they’re going to learn more about me, I’m going to learn more about them, and we’re going to have a lot less headbutting as we’re trying to move towards something, because we’re slowing that down a little bit. ERIKA: Yeah. I love that. And I think that slowing down is really key, because our go-tos are so automatic and so fast. It’s very easy to assume we’re all there, we’re all on the same page. We all got to the same conclusion. You know what I mean? And so, I was thinking that it can make you feel uneasy when you start to realize how different someone else who is close to you is from you. When we first have children, it might feel like they’re going to just be little me, they’re going to be like us. And as we start to learn how different they are, I think it can be a challenge at times. But then, I can rewrite that story for myself, too. It’s not difficult. It’s fun and this is really what makes life interesting. It’s not about finding people who are exactly, precisely like me in every way in order to have met my match, or in order to get along. It’s more about having fun figuring people out and learning about each other and our differences. And just imagining that every person in the world is this complex, unique human being, it’s kind of exciting. But yeah, I can sometimes fall in that trap of like, I just want someone who understands everything about how I am. But it’s too complicated. There’s too much. But that’s okay. That’s just part of the richness of life, that everyone will bring all of their own things to every moment. PAM: Like you said earlier, it’s that shift to getting curious. It’s giving ourselves that space for that shift, because yes, I think that can be so much about where we are in the moment, too, when things feel overwhelming. Oh my gosh, they just do this. Why this one? But we can take that moment to , people are different. And I think it helps, too, having worked through it. We’ve talked about this a lot before, like you said, how much fun it ends up being. How we end up in places that we, on our own, could never have imagined. And it’s super cool and fun, and my life is richer and my world is wider. And yes, it took some energy and yes, maybe I don’t always have the capacity for it, but when I can do it, it is amazing and it’s worth the time to make that shift, to look through their eyes, to get curious about, why doesn’t that sound interesting? And knowing the personalities, that people are different. Because maybe you don’t ask your child, why is that interesting to you? Because it would feel judgmental just in the way that things are phrased like that. But last month in the Network, our topic was intentional language and that just reaches everywhere. Because people are different, words mean different things to them. There are so many layers to this. ANNA: So many layers. And I’m going to bring the judgment piece back again, because I think it can be when we’re feeling judgmental about someone, we’re most likely here. We’re talking about our kids or our partner, but really anyone, it’s a really great time to pause and say, where’s that coming from? Because I would argue that probably a big chunk of the time, it’s coming from a belief that they’re not doing it the way we would do it. And then when we recognize, oh, there isn’t the one right way, people are just different. I mean, gosh, letting go of that judgment is so valuable to relationships because it really is so surprising to the person on the other end. Because their way of processing and working has been working for them all these years. And now you’re coming in saying it’s wrong and ing judgment. It’s surprising. And so it can be disconnecting. And so, I think it’s just so important when those little red flags of, like, am I being frustrated by this conversation? Or am I not understanding something? Or am I ing judgment about something?That’s when I want to stop and change that lens. Bring this people are different lens, bring that curiosity, because it really just makes such a difference. And when we think about our kids, if we’re judging how they’re spending their time or how they’re moving through their day, this came up with another person not too long ago where, I think they were judging the way the kids spent the day, because they were thinking, “What would I do if I had this free environment? This free environment where I didn’t have to go to school?” And they were putting their child self in this environment that they had created thinking these are all the things that I would do and it would be amazing. And the kids were not doing any of them. “They’re over there doing this thing that I don’t like at all.” But it’s like, oh, but this is what they’re doing with the freedom. This is what they are being drawn to in this moment. And so again, when we see ourselves like bringing that judgment lens, it’s like, can we let that go and just go, huh, I’m curious about this? I want to understand and recognize that might be what I would do, but it’s not what they’re doing and there’s really good reason for that because we’re all so very different. ERIKA: Yeah, it’s like when we’re thinking, “Well, you should,” just any “should,” like they should do this. He should do that. That’s a really good little red flag, because it pops into my head all the time. I think it’s a really natural thing to think, because I have good ideas about what I would do and so then it just feels like, and they should as well, but that would be a good red flag to catch. And then I wanted to mention a little a-ha moment I had with Josh. So, my husband and I have different personalities. We have a lot in common, but there are a lot of big differences. And so, one of the things is, he was talking about his frustration with some people at work, and he’s just like, people just want to be happy. I don’t understand why they’re making these choices or whatever. And so, his big belief about the world is that all people, their main thing is that they want to be happy. And I was like, okay, but that’s your belief about the world. Not everybody’s number one thing is to be happy people. Their number one thing may be to make an impact on the world. Some people, their number one thing is to be safe. There are so many possible different number one things, but from his perspective, it’s like, that doesn’t make any sense. Why would anyone not that number one thing to be happy, have fun, and just be happy. And so, it sounds really good to him. That was an a-ha moment, I think, for both of us being like, okay, so that’s why some of these behaviors of other people just make no sense and can be so frustrating. And it also goes a long way to explain why he would make the choices he makes in his life. And so, I think that if you’re a curious sort of person and interested in diving deeper into these personality things, like asking those questions of yourself, like what are those core, important things to me? And then just ask other people like, what are the things for you? Because I just think you’d be really surprised by how different even people who you get along really well with, even people who you have these close relationships with, just how different people are. PAM: Yeah. And being a partner. Because it’s been forever and it’s very typical. Anyway, it is like the way you pack the dishwasher, it’s like there’s one way, there is one right way. It’s like, but this is the most efficient, and so, I think it’s super fun. That’s when we’ve been going back and forth. It’s there’s not just one way. And so, if you like it this way and that’s super important to you, I’ll keep my hands off it. But the interesting piece, I think, for me, too, is just to open that up for ourselves, to recognize, does this feel like I’m doing this the one right way? It ties in with what you’re saying here. This is the one way for me. Why is that? What are those pieces that feel really good when I put this dish here and this dish here? And why do I put knives this way or this way, or whatever it is. What is it that’s feeling good about the thing that I’m doing that feels good for me? Which then opens up that lens to, oh, like that really aligns with my personality, with who I am as a person, with the way I like to do things. And that helps me recognize through that people are different lens that other people, some people don’t have efficiency at the top of their list. There are just so many different lenses. It doesn’t have to be the fastest way. It doesn’t have to be the shiniest way. And that gets us to recognizing the messages, too, that we’ve absorbed, the whole cultural productivity efficiency. That is a shining gold star that one must shoot for throughout anything that you’re doing during the day. And it’s just so fascinating. I think it can be helpful for us to observe that in ourselves. That helps us peel it back or knock away a little bit again so that we can recognize it’s not just one right way. ANNA: And I think that speaks to what Erika said, where school is kind of trying to force us to that one place. And so, I think it’s really interesting to actually do some introspection about, okay, is that priority that I’ve set here really about how my brain works and how I work, or is it what I think I’m supposed to do? Because that’s a whole other layer of it. But, right, I love the dishwasher example, and it reminded me of a friend that, I mean, this is even hard for me to say these words. Okay. So, she would take the utensils from the dishwasher and just dump them in the drawer. Just dumped ’em all in the drawer. And so, you would just open the drawer and you’d fish around to get out a fork or whatever. This is very stressful for me and I don’t feel like I’m overly organized, but I’m like, I want the forks in the fork area, want the knives in the knife area. But it was so not a priority for her. She just was like, but why would you waste your time doing that when you could be doing fun things? I’m guessing she probably has that Josh and David thing. Like why when you could be doing fun things? And I’m like, oh. But I don’t see it as a waste of like, it just doesn’t seem like it takes that much time. But again, this piece of people are different, we just prioritize things differently. There are just different things. And our priorities can change. There may be a time when there’s a lot going on in my life where I really do need some calm, clean surfaces, or I need a little bit less stimulation, and then other times where I’m fine. And so, that’s where, if we can keep that curiosity, we can keep that open communication going. We’re not taking it personally, we’re not getting frustrated. We’re just recognizing that we’re all so different. ERIKA: Yeah. And just how fast is it to just dump the dump that silverware in there! That’s really the fastest way! It hadn’t even occurred to me, but that is incredibly much faster than what I do. So funny. But they’ve never had problems with it. But if you do have the partner who wants to be super organized, like I fall into the trap sometimes of being like, he’s doing that because he doesn’t like me, because he doesn’t care about my feelings, is why he does it that way. You know what I mean? So, that’s the taking it extremely personally. I could be like, oh my gosh, she’s dumping all that silverware in there, because she doesn’t care at all about how I feel about the drawer. But it’s like, no, it doesn’t even occur to her. ANNA: Right! I think that is such a fun example to end on, and that it’s fun to think about all the different ways that we’re different and all the different ways that we prioritize things. And that it isn’t saying something about someone else, it’s only saying something . And so, when we can stay there, gosh, it just really revolutionizes all the relationships. PAM: All the relationships. It really does. Because then you can embrace and celebrate somebody else’s way of doing things and choices that they make without like feeling like you are wrong or that it says something about you. It’s like, this is so you and that’s amazing and I’m so excited that you’re discovering this and exploring, expressing whatever it is, whether it’s through actions, choices, dress, everything. And then I go back to, we’re all human beings. And we’re each one of us different and just keep peeling back those layers because every time someone’s like, huh, why? Oh, people are different. Let’s tap that for a little bit and see. Where does that lead me? Because oh, it leads beautiful places, doesn’t it? ANNA: It really does. So, I’m excited for people to take this lens and see what happens. So, leave us some comments, reach out, and I just appreciate the two of you so much. I love talking about these ideas with you and thinking about all the different ways that it is valuable in our lives. And if you all listening love these conversations, we really would love to have you at the Living Joyfully Network. We have a lot of fun conversations and so many a-ha moments and it just fills me up so much. So, you can find a link for that under the community tab at livingjoyfullyshop.com. Thank you so much for ing us today! PAM: Have a great day. See you all later. Bye! ERIKA: Bye!