Dev Interrupted 4q2c18

Is your company relying on surveys alone to bridge the gap between developers and managers?   In this episode of Dev Interrupted, host Ben Lloyd Pearson and Dan Lines, COO of LinearB, dive into the perceived misalignment between engineers and their leaders on improving developer experience. Together, they emphasize the importance of data-driven insights over relying solely on surveys, highlighting how quantifiable metrics can illuminate issues like technical debt and build times.  The conversation also touches on the power of setting clear, company-wide goals to boost developer experience and productivity. Next, Conor Bronsdon, in his final episode as host, sits down with Andrew Boyagi, Atlassian's head of DevOps Evangelism. Andrew brings a wealth of knowledge on developer experience, emphasizing the need for transparency, the nuances of measuring productivity, and the crucial role of company culture in aligning development teams with business goals. Show Notes: Beyond the DORA Frameworks Workshop (Jan. 29, 30) 2025 Engineering Benchmarks Follow Ben Follow Conor Follow Atlassian the show: Subscribe to our Substack Leave us a review Subscribe on YouTube Follow us on Twitter or LinkedIn Offers: Learn about Continuous Merge with gitStream Get your DORA Metrics free forever

How do you build a culture that balances operational excellence with developer happiness? By shifting from firefighting to foresight. Kick off Season 5 of Dev Interrupted with hosts Ben Lloyd Pearson, Andrew Zigler, and Dan Lines as they share their New Year's resolutions and welcome Sowmya Subramanian, whose leadership journey spans Google, YouTube, and Oracle, to the show. From redefining metrics like DORA to adapting processes like Fix-It Weeks, Soumya discusses dismantling the “hero” mindset that rewards firefighting, aligning engineering with business priorities, and creating rituals that scale teams without sacrificing creativity. Tune in to learn how Sowmya’s holistic approach to metrics, culture, and tooling creates resilient teams and products that scale without breaking a sweat. Show Notes: 2025 Engineering Benchmarks Follow Sowmya Follow Ben Follow Andrew the show: Subscribe to our Substack Leave us a review Subscribe on YouTube Follow us on Twitter or LinkedIn Offers: Learn about Continuous Merge with gitStream Get your DORA Metrics free forever

It's the end of an era on Dev Interrupted as we say farewell to host Conor Bronsdon and welcome a fresh voice, Andrew Zigler! us for a nostalgic trip down memory lane as Conor revisits his favorite interviews and moments from Season 4 and beyond, including discussions on chaos engineering, technical debt, and the human side of managing software engineers. He shares memorable stories from guests like Charity Majors, Rob Zuber, Kelly Vaughn, and many more, while reflecting on the evolution of Dev Interrupted and its impact on the engineering leadership community. But it’s not all bittersweet. Get an exclusive sneak peek at the exciting changes coming to Dev Interrupted in 2025. Expect the show to double down on research and data, explore new formats, and even hit the road with live events. Plus, the Dev Interrupted Substack will feature more frequent newsletters, unique analysis of research white papers, and insights from guest writers.  You don’t want to miss this special episode filled with laughter, reflection, and a surprise holiday-themed game of Would You Rather.  The team is taking off the holidays but we’ll see you back here on January 7th for the start of Season 5! Show Notes: 2025 Engineering Benchmarks Insights Webinar Keep up with Conor: Substack Listen to Conor at: Chain of Thought Podcast the show: Subscribe to our Substack Leave us a review Subscribe on YouTube Follow us on Twitter or LinkedIn Offers: Learn about Continuous Merge with gitStream Get your DORA Metrics free forever

2025 will test every assumption about how engineering teams work. With the new year fast approaching Ori Keren, CEO of LinearB, has some bold predictions that might surprise you, like why developer productivity could actually go down in 2025. Yep, you read that right. As AI tools flood the market, we might see a dip in both productivity and creativity before the long-term benefits kick in. It’s a wake-up call for engineering leaders to rethink how they lead their teams. Ori dives into the trends that’ll dominate: - AI’s rise - The ever-growing need for cybersecurity - Why DevEx and developer productivity are heading for a showdown His advice? Stop flying blind. “You can’t optimize what you don’t measure,” he says. If you’re leading an engineering org, this episode is your 2025 game plan: a mix of data-driven decision-making and people-first strategies to stay ahead in a year of change. Don’t miss this insightful fusion of qual and quant. Show Notes: us at Dev Interrupted Live! 2025 Engineering Benchmarks Insights Webinar Follow Ori Follow Ben Follow Andrew the show: Subscribe to our Substack Leave us a review Subscribe on YouTube Follow us on Twitter or LinkedIn Offers: Learn about Continuous Merge with gitStream Get your DORA Metrics free forever

What’s the secret to building better products? Letting engineers drive the vision. This week, host Ben Lloyd Pearson interviews Austin Spiegel, co-founder and CTO of Sift Stack, who previously spent years leading engineering teams at SpaceX. Austin reveals how SpaceX's unique engineering culture, which eliminated the product management layer,  influenced his approach to building Sift Stack, including the implementation of a forward-deployed engineering team. Learn how this approach leads to faster development cycles, happier customers, and more innovative products. Austin also argues that we're entering a new era where the most valuable engineers aren't just skilled coders, but also savvy business thinkers. He believes that as software development becomes easier due to the proliferation of AI, engineers who can connect their technical expertise with a deep understanding of customer needs and market trends will have a significant competitive advantage. Show Notes: 2025 Engineering Benchmarks Insights Webinar Read The secret to better products? Let engineers drive vision Follow Sift Stack on LinkedIn the show: Subscribe to our Substack Leave us a review Subscribe on YouTube Follow us on Twitter or LinkedIn Offers: Learn about Continuous Merge with gitStream Get your DORA Metrics free forever

Most developers (ourselves included) want to run for the hills when they hear the words “engineering process.” But it turns out, the biggest danger to your team may not be having enough process. You don’t have to take our word for it. This week’s guest made a believer out of us and we’re willing to bet she’ll make a believer out of you too. Julianna Lamb, co-founder and CTO of Stytch, understands that engineering processes can be a sensitive subject for developers. But she argues that the right amount of process can actually boost your team's velocity and empower them to take ownership. Julianna shares insights on how to right-size processes for teams, implement effective project life cycles, and address friction points to ensure smooth workflows. Show Notes: Refactoring x Dev Interrupted Survey Learn more about Stytch Julianna’s LinkedIn Julianna’s Twitter the show: Subscribe to our Substack Leave us a review Subscribe on YouTube Follow us on Twitter or LinkedIn Offers: Learn about Continuous Merge with gitStream Get your DORA Metrics free forever

This week, Dev Interrupted dives into the 2024 Stack Overflow Developer Survey, revealing a surprising statistic: only 1 in 5 developers are happy in their jobs.   Stack Overflow's Senior Analyst of Market Research and Insights, Erin Yepis, s host Ben Lloyd Pearson to discuss the survey's findings and explore the reasons behind this widespread dissatisfaction. From salary woes and workplace settings to the ever-present burden of technical debt, they dissect the factors impacting developer happiness. Later, Dan Lines offers his perspective, drawing on LinearB's data to pinpoint three key challenges to developer satisfaction. He also shares valuable strategies for tackling technical debt, a growing concern as more companies transform into software-driven businesses. Show Notes: 2025 Engineering Benchmarks Insights Webinar Refactoring x Dev Interrupted Survey 2024 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Check out Erin’s blog the show: Subscribe to our Substack Leave us a review Subscribe on YouTube Follow us on Twitter or LinkedIn Offers: Learn about Continuous Merge with gitStream Get your DORA Metrics free forever

There’s AI agents. There’s AI tooling. Do either drive business impact or are they just more things your dev team is supposed to stay on top of? Birgitta Boeckeler, Global Lead for AI Assisted Software Delivery at ThoughtWorks, s the show to discuss the practical applications of AI in software delivery. She shares her research on AI agents, highlights areas where AI hasn't lived up to the hype, and offers concrete examples of useful AI tools for development teams. Dan Lines then s the conversation to provide his perspective on how engineering leaders can leverage these insights to effectively implement AI within their own teams. He also discusses LinearB's efforts in helping software teams measure the business impact of AI. Show Notes: 2025 Engineering Benchmarks Insights Webinar Refactoring x Dev Interrupted Survey Birgitta’s LinkedIn Birgitta’s website Martin Fowler Memos the show: Subscribe to our Substack Leave us a review Subscribe on YouTube Follow us on Twitter or LinkedIn Offers: Learn about Continuous Merge with gitStream Get your DORA Metrics free forever

Open source has transformed software development, but can it do the same for AI? In this episode of Dev Interrupted, Conor Bronsdon talks with Scott McCarty, Senior Principal Product Manager at Red Hat, about the potential of open source AI to revolutionize enterprise DevOps.  They discuss the challenges and opportunities of open source AI, including licensing, security, and the need for community-driven development. McCarty argues that open source AI is crucial for building trust and ensuring that AI benefits everyone, not just a select few. Show Notes: 2025 Engineering Benchmarks Insights Webinar Refactoring x Dev Interrupted Survey Scott’s LinkedIn the show: Subscribe to our Substack Leave us a review Subscribe on YouTube Follow us on Twitter or LinkedIn Offers: Learn about Continuous Merge with gitStream Get your DORA Metrics free forever

Everyone knows the era of growth at all costs is over, but where does that leave us? And specifically, where does that leave founders? The answer is straightforward: founders have to start thinking like business people.  This week, Conor Bronsdon interviews Ashish Aggarwal, founder and CTO of Productive and an active investor in over 30 companies. Ashish shares his insights on how startups are adapting to the new “efficient growth” environment, why this paradigm shift is an opportunity for founders, and how the pressures of efficiency have created incentives for companies to move towards geo-distributed teams instead of co-located teams. Show Notes: Refactoring x Dev Interrupted Survey Ashish’s LinkedIn 2024 State of SaaS Consolidation Report the show: Subscribe to our Substack Leave us a review Subscribe on YouTube Follow us on Twitter or LinkedIn Offers: Learn about Continuous Merge with gitStream Get your DORA Metrics free forever

It’s time we recognize the idea of a ‘Golden Path’ is unrealistic. In this episode of Dev Interrupted, host Dan Lines is ed by Cory O'Daniel, CEO of MassDriver, to discuss Cory’s provocative article 'DevOps is Bullshit'. They cover the pitfalls of DevOps, the evolution of cloud operations and whether or not platform engineering is the solution the industry needs . Cory shares insights on why many organizations struggle with DevOps implementation, the impact of cloud technology on traditional operations, and how internal developer platforms are reshaping the industry. Topics: 01:03 Where has DevOps gone wrong? 04:19 Have we changed or does DevOps mean something different? 11:51 Platform engineering in 2024 20:10 How can platform engineering leaders measure success? 26:40 Why are new hires being put in charge of DevOps? 29:53 Getting buy in for a better platform engineering experience 39:13 Are internal developer platforms a fad?  Show Notes: Refactoring x Dev Interrupted Survey Cory O'Daniel Massdriver - Standardize Infrastructure | Enhance Developer Experience | Enable Self-Service Cory O’Daniel k8s/acc (@coryodaniel) / X DevOps is Bullshit Bridging Cloud Talent Gap the show: Subscribe to our Substack Leave us a review Subscribe on YouTube Follow us on Twitter or LinkedIn Offers: Learn about Continuous Merge with gitStream Get your DORA Metrics free forever

This week, host Conor Bronsdon chats with Dheeraj Pandey, CEO and co-founder of DevRev. Dheeraj shares his incredible journey from leading Nutanix to a valuation of $16 billion, to now striving to build another unicorn with DevRev. Dheeraj opens up about the lessons learned from his entrepreneurial journey, emphasizing the significance of having a holistic approach to building products and companies. He explores how his experiences at Nutanix have shaped his vision at DevRev, especially in of integrating AI as a core component rather than a mere add-on. The discussion also covers a range of topics including the transformative power of AI in business operations, customer-centric design, and the importance of balancing innovative technology with intuitive experience. Topics: 02:49 What inspired you to start DevRev? 08:38 How did you decide not to take a bolt on approach to AI? 11:30 What can other entrepreneurs learn from you about levelling up their abilities? 16:42 How are you approaching scaling up DevRel? 28:11 How is DevRev thinking about AI driven design? 44:52 What's happening with DevRev's leadership in AI? Links: Dheeraj Pandey Dheeraj Pandey Dheeraj Pandey (@dheeraj) / X DevRev (@devrev) Dheeraj Pandey Unified Opening Windows Founder Mode Overcoming Growth Crises Zanzibar: Google’s Consistent, Global Authorization System the show: Subscribe to our Substack Leave us a review Subscribe on YouTube Follow us on Twitter or LinkedIn Offers: Learn about Continuous Merge with gitStream Get your DORA Metrics free forever

This week, co-host Conor Bronsdon sits down with Daniela Miao, co-founder and CTO of Momento, to discuss her journey from DynamoDB at AWS to founding the real-time data infrastructure platform Momento.  Daniela covers the importance of observability, the decision to rebuild Momento's stack with Rust, and how observability can speed up development cycles. They also explore strategies for aligning technical projects with business objectives, building team trust, and the critical role of communication in achieving success.  Tune in for valuable insights on leadership, technical decision-making, and startup growth. Topics: 02:01 Why is observability often treated as an auxiliary service? 06:14 Making a push for observability 13:32 Picking the right metrics to observe and pay attention to 15:49 Has the technical shift to Rust paid off? 19:23 How did you create trust and buy in from your team to make a switch? 26:31 What could other teams learn from Momento’s move to Rust? 38:15 Advice would you give for other technical founders? Links: Daniela Miao The Momento Blog Momento: An enterprise-ready serverless platform for caching and pub/sub Unpacking the 2023 DORA Report w/ Nathen Harvey of Google Cloud Google SRE Rust Programming Language the show: Subscribe to our Substack Leave us a review Subscribe on YouTube Follow us on Twitter or LinkedIn Offers: Learn about Continuous Merge with gitStream Get your DORA Metrics free forever

This week, our host Dan Lines chats with Malte Ubl, CTO of Vercel, about why iteration speed is a game-changer for teams trying to deliver more efficiently. Malte shares how accelerating the development cycle and embracing platform engineering can supercharge productivity, helping teams ship faster and innovate more effectively. We explore what it really means to streamline workflows, reduce bottlenecks, and create an environment where developers can focus on what they do best—building great products. Malte also gives us a behind-the-scenes look at how engineering strategies are evolving to keep up with the ever-growing demands. Topics: 01:14 How do you see platform engineering changing the way modern software engineering functions? 04:52 Decentralized vs. centralized teams? 11:40 How Vercel is using AI 13:30 All about AI SDKs 20:41 How should platform engineering teams should be using AI? 28:02 Power struggles between high level ICs and a high level managers? 30:10 Key factors to focus on when optimizing AI applications? 35:11 Advice for other CTOs or engineering leaders Links: Malte Ubl (@cramforce) About Malte Ubl Malte Ubl v0 by Vercel Vercel: Build and deploy the best web experiences with the Frontend Cloud the Engineering Leader’s Guide to Accelerating Developer Productivity the show: Subscribe to our Substack Leave us a review Subscribe on YouTube Follow us on Twitter or LinkedIn Offers: Learn about Continuous Merge with gitStream Get your DORA Metrics free forever

What are the limitations of general large language models, and when should you evaluate more specialized models for your team’s most important use case? This week, Conor Bronsdon sits down with Brandon Jung, Vice President of Ecosystem at Tabnine, to explore the difference between specialized models and LLMs. Brandon highlights how specialized models outperform LLMs when it comes to specific coding tasks, and how developers can leverage tailored solutions to improve developer productivity and code quality. The conversation covers the importance of data transparency, data origination, cost implications, and regulatory considerations such as the EU's AI Act. Whether you're a developer looking to boost your productivity or an engineering leader evaluating solutions for your team, this episode offers important context on the next wave of AI solutions Topics: 00:31 Specialized models vs. LLMs 01:56 The problems with LLMs and data integrity 12:34 Why AGI is further away than we think 16:11 Evaluating the right models for your engineering team 23:42 Is AI code secure? 26:22 How to adjust to work with AI effectively 32:48 Training developers in the new AI world Links: Brandon Jung on LinkedIn Brandon Jung (@brandoncjung) / X Tabnine (@tabnine) / X Tabnine AI code assistant | Private, personalized, protected Managing Bot-Generated PRs & Reducing Team Workload by 6% the show: Subscribe to our Substack Leave us a review Subscribe on YouTube Follow us on Twitter or LinkedIn Offers: Learn about Continuous Merge with gitStream Get your DORA Metrics free forever

Engineering teams are already seeing efficiency gains by leveraging Gen AI solutions like Copilot, but the next wave of AI workflows has the potential to 10X productivity. This week, we’re exploring the world of Agentic AI with Amir Behbehani, Chief AI Engineer and Founder of Memra. Agentic AI can be defined as AI agents or systems that have the capacity to make decisions or take actions on their own based on the objectives they are programmed to achieve. These AI systems act independently, gathering information, processing it, and then choosing or executing actions without direct human intervention. Amir shares how Memra is leading the way in developing AI agents capable of handling complex tasks, decision-making, and improving productivity across industries. He also discusses the implications of AI in reshaping how businesses operate, and how organizations can prepare for a future where AI plays a central role in both day-to-day operations and high-level strategic decisions. Whether you're an AI enthusiast, an engineering leader, or curious about the future of automation, this episode offers a deep dive into the possibilities and challenges of Agentic AI and what it means for the future of work. Chapters: 01:23 Defining Agentic AI  07:02 Frameworks for thinking about Agentic AI  12:52 Unpacking AI as a black box  13:58 How Agentic AI will benefit software engineers  22:55 What would be a good starting point to leverage agents on an engineering team? 26:46 Will agents replace freelancers and the gig economy? 36:20 What is the synthetic marketplace? 40:11 How Agentic AI impacts writing code Links: Supercharge Your Operations with AI-Powered Agents | Memra Amir Behbehani Managing Bot-Generated PRs & Reducing Team Workload by 6% the show: Subscribe to our Substack Leave us a review Subscribe on YouTube Follow us on Twitter or LinkedIn Offers: Learn about Continuous Merge with gitStream Get your DORA Metrics free forever

According to a LinkedIn study, engineers with strong soft skills are promoted 13% faster than those with only technical skills. Given how AI will continue to reshape market demands for developers and engineering leaders, how can you adapt to these changes and further your career? This week we’re ed by Aarathi Vidyasagar, VP of Engineering at LinkedIn, to explore the growing importance of soft skills and how leadership, communication, and empathy are becoming just as critical as technical expertise. Aarathi shares how LinkedIn is preparing engineers to thrive in this new environment, focusing on upskilling teams to navigate AI and empower collaboration and innovation through strong interpersonal skills. She offers valuable takeaways into building engineering teams that balance hard technical abilities with the soft skills needed to lead, mentor, and work effectively in diverse teams. For anyone interested in the future of engineering and the rising demand for soft skills, this episode offers an important perspective on how to equip your teams for long-term success in an AI-driven world. Episode Highlights: 00:56 How industry changes have impacted the need for communication and soft skills  04:31 How software development is going to continue to change  12:33 Generalists vs Specialists  15:52 How is LinkedIn positioned for the new era of hiring? 31:11 How is LinkedIn approaching developer experience and productivity? 36:33 How to devs in automating migrations  Show Notes: Aarathi on LinkedIn Closing the Tech Talent Gap Managing Bot-Generated PRs & Reducing Team Workload by 6% the show: Subscribe to our Substack Leave us a review Subscribe on YouTube Follow us on Twitter or LinkedIn Offers: Learn about Continuous Merge with gitStream Get your DORA Metrics free forever

Gen AI for dev teams has been a focal point of conversation for the last few years, but the technology and application are both still very nascent. How can you find the best Gen AI use case for your team, and implement it safely? This week, our host Dan Lines sits down with Peter McKee, Vice President of Developer Relations and Community at Sonar. They explore the benefits and risks associated with Gen AI, and whether this new tooling is most impactful for junior or senior developers. Regardless of the persona, there needs to be an emphasis on quality control, static code analysis, and the new coaching strategies to help the influx of new code. Tune in to hear Dan and Peter offer practical advice for engineering leaders on safely experimenting with and integrating Gen AI tools to enhance productivity without sacrificing quality. Episode Highlights: 00:33 The ins and out of being a VP of Developer Relations and Community 04:48 The Importance of wisdom and experience when applying Gen AI 08:32 Is there more of a risk for junior developers in this age? 19:51 How tooling can help with the influx of Gen AI Code  26:02 The safe ways to roll out Gen AI to developers 29:21 Where to start applying Gen AI for your team  Show Notes: Peter McKee (@pmckee) / X Peter McKee Better Code & Better Software | Ultimate Security and Quality | Sonar The Engineering Leader’s Guide to Accelerating Developer Productivity the show: Subscribe to our Substack Leave us a review Subscribe on YouTube Follow us on Twitter or LinkedIn Offers: Learn about Continuous Merge with gitStream Get your DORA Metrics free forever

In an organization as big as Shopify, how can you pioneer exceptional developer experience not only for your team but also for external developers using your product? This week we’re ed by Eytan Seidman, Director of Product at Shopify to unpack Shopify's approach to building elite engineering teams. Eytan highlights how Shopify’s high-context, high-autonomy culture empowers engineers and product managers to innovate and drive impact. By leveraging a mission-driven culture, Shopify ensures that internal and external developers can contribute effectively to the platform, without being bottlenecked back by inefficient processes or developer experience. Tune in this week, and discover how you can implement the same processes that have made Shopify so successful. Episode Highlights: 00:50 What makes engineering and product roles at Shopify special? 03:31 How Shopify onboards new hires to drive impact 09:05 Pioneering developer experience at Shopify 13:28 How Shopify defines success for their platform  17:50 Building high-context, empowered teams 29:35 Leveraging AI and LLM’s as a growth opportunity 35:29 Advice for product and engineering leaders thinking about their next career step Show Notes: Eytan Seidman x.com/eytanseidman Shopify Shopify Developers Platform—Build. Innovate. Get paid. your copy of the 2024 Software Engineering Benchmarks Report here the show: Subscribe to our Substack Leave us a review Subscribe on YouTube Follow us on Twitter or LinkedIn Offers: Learn about Continuous Merge with gitStream Get your DORA Metrics free forever

Both the aerospace and defense sectors are renowned for long project timelines rife with silos and hurdles that get in the way of productivity. With over 20 years of experience at Lockheed Martin and elsewhere, Robin Yeman literally wrote the book Industrial DevOps on how to implement DevOps principles at traditional behemoths to build faster, safer systems. As Space Domain Lead at Carnegie Mellon's Software Engineering Institute, Robin’s pioneering work reveals how applying DevOps principles can significantly improve speed, quality, and collaboration at traditional enterprises. She emphasizes the importance of cross-functional teams, modular architectures, and a growth mindset in driving innovation and overcoming the challenges of digital transformation within the aerospace and defense sectors. Tune in to gain practical insights about the application of DevOps in large-scale systems, the role of organizational design in fostering communication, and how these principles have helped government software teams. Episode Highlights: - 01:12 Robin’s book Industrial DevOps - 04:00 How did Robin’s work at Lockheed Martin lead to Carnegie Mellon? - 05:46 How should you get started thinking about industrial DevOps? - 08:01 How Robin’s research came together across varied experiences - 10:25 What patterns can you adapt to be more successful? - 16:54 Quantitative vs. qualitative data when making long term plans - 20:27 Shifting left in Industrial DevOps Show Notes:  Robin Yeman Industrial DevOps Wiring the Winning Organization - IT Revolution your copy of the Engineering Leader’s Guide to Goals and Reporting the show: Subscribe to our Substack Leave us a review Subscribe on YouTube Follow us on Twitter or LinkedIn Offers: Learn about Continuous Merge with gitStream Get your DORA Metrics free forever