116 Maggie Dent - Parenting Boys with Backbone, Heart and Surfboards. 4c212q

Are you raising boys and wondering how to guide them through risk, resilience, and real conversations—without losing your mind or your connection with them? Navigating the journey from boyhood to manhood can feel like walking a tightrope—especially in today’s digital, high-pressure world. This episode offers a refreshing, deeply insightful look into parenting boys with empathy, science, and solid boundaries—while still letting them crash, climb, and surf their way to growth. Learn the three foundational rules every parent should use to help kids make better choices and build integrity. Discover how movement, like a simple walk or shooting hoops, can open powerful pathways to communication with your son. Hear real-life stories of parenting wins (and fails) that show how warmth and structure build trust and resilience for life. How surfing helps to shape good men. Hit play now to discover how you can be the calm, connected parent your son turns to—no matter what. https://www.maggiedent.com Key Points Advocating for three foundational rules for children to make better choices. Importance of resilience, risk, and nature in parenting boys as highlighted by Maggie Dent. Discussion on effective communication strategies, especially through small chats, for guiding children. Highlighting the importance of allowing boys to experience the unpredictability of life and the value of nature play. Discussing the role of surfing in developing deep friendships and its impact on mental health. Exploring the concept of masculinity beyond societal expectations and the importance of emotional expression. Sharing insights on grieving processes and the importance of safe spaces for emotional expression among men. Emphasizing the significance of unconditional love and safety in parenting.  Outline Surfing and its impact on boys Maggie Dent discussed the positive impact of surfing on boys, highlighting that it teaches them to deal with outcomes they cannot control Surfing was mentioned as a way to build resilience and frustration tolerance in boys Maggie shared personal anecdotes about her sons and their love for surfing, and how it helped them reset and regulate their emotions Parenting boys with backbone, heart, and resilience Maggie Dent emphasized the importance of raising boys with backbone, heart, and resilience She discussed the need for parents to guide boys through risk and resilience, and to have real conversations with them Maggie suggested three foundational rules for parents to help their kids make better choices: be aware that every choice has a consequence, ensure choices do not hurt oneself or others, and do not damage the world around She advocated for warm, connected, and responsive parenting, emphasizing the importance of boundaries and consequences Communication and listening in parenting Maggie Dent highlighted the importance of effective communication and listening in parenting She shared her experience as a teacher and counselor, emphasizing the value of being a safe and non-judgmental listener for children Maggie advised parents to resist the urge to immediately solve their children's problems, allowing them to develop problem-solving skills She suggested taking a walk or engaging in physical activity to facilitate conversations and create a safe space for children to open up Dealing with teenage behavior and challenges Maggie Dent discussed the challenges of parenting teenagers, including their tendency towards risky behavior and impulsivity She shared personal anecdotes about her sons' experiences with injuries, accidents, and emotional challenges Maggie emphasized the importance of maintaining a warm and loving relationship with teenagers, even as they push boundaries and seek independence She advised parents to be patient, empathetic, and understanding, and to avoid shaming or punishing teenagers for their mistakes Navigating the digital world and online safety Maggie Dent addressed the challenges of parenting in the digital age, including the exposure of children to harmful content online She discussed the importance of monitoring children's online activities and having conversations about online safety and appropriate behavior Maggie suggested limiting children's access to smartphones and social media, and using monitoring apps to keep them safe She emphasized the need for parents to be aware of the potential dangers of sextortion and the importance of teaching children about consent and respect in relationships Masculinity and men's mental health Maggie Dent discussed her views on masculinity, rejecting the concept of 'toxic masculinity' and emphasizing the importance of men's emotional vulnerability and connection She shared her experiences working with men and highlighted the need for men to process grief and trauma in their own way Maggie advocated for men's groups and safe spaces for men to express their emotions and connect with others She emphasized the importance of men being present and involved in their children's lives and expressing love and affection towards their partners and children Transcription Maggie Dent And I think that's one of the beautiful things, you know, why I talk about why surfing was so good for the boys, because... They couldn't control the outcome. I think if every family had it and we came back to just three rules instead of too many rules is that. Michael Frampton Commonly known as the queen of common sense, Maggie Dent has become one of Australia's favorite parenting authors, educators, and podcasters. Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and today's episode, a little bit of a different one. It's all about parenting. So if you're not a parent or an expecting parent, this might not be the episode for you. But if you are... Stay tuned. Maggie raised four surfers, four boys, four surfing boys. And she is a parenting expert with a podcast and 10 books. So really cool conversation. We talk about raising and guiding boys through risk resilience, real conversations. We talk about the three foundational rules that every parent should use to help their kids to make better choices. Plus much more. This episode is for any parent, not just surfers. So please share this episode with friends that could use it. A little bit of parenting help, and we all can. Without further ado, I will fade in my conversation with Maggie Dent. Excellent. Thank you so much. Nice to meet you too. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Maggie Dent Total pleasure since it's something I know a little bit about. Heh. Michael Frampton Surfing and boys. Maggie Dent Resilience, risk, injuries, you name it, I've got it all. I live in Jerringong, which is south of Sydney, right on the coast of Cook. So my lawyer son lives here. My doctor son lives in Pottsville, just south of the Queensland border. One lives near Manly. And the other one is in the Margaret River area and his favourite beach is the one where three people have been eaten by white pointer sharks. Nice. And he said, like I said, you never see any of my sons happier than... After sift. Michael Frampton Yep. Where the good waves are is often where those big creatures are as well, sadly. Maggie Dent Yeah, and I think, you know, early on, as every, I think every probably woman, even more so than a man. That was, you know, I had to really give myself some really strong talking to's because I...The chances are you get killed by mosquitoes at far higher. They came with me with the stats. I love it with this pragmatism of boys and men. Now look, mozzies kill millions. Donkeys kill more than sharks, Mum. And I had to sit there and go, they're actually right. Put it in perspective, Mark. And then, you know, the other thing they say, I know I'll give you the full story to this one where they came to. So they've come down for Christmas when I lived in Dunsborough, which is near Margaret River. Somebody had been attacked in the area on the Saturday. All four boys got up, put their wetties on, and they're about walking out the door. And I'm looking at the Sunday Times front page story. And they paused and they looked and said, you're okay, Mum. And I said, no, I'm not okay. And they said, well, it's, you know, it's a really rare chance, Mum. And then one of them says, and we'll all die doing something we love. And then the third one, which I thought was the classic, the clown of the family says, anyway, it's not hungry. Ha. Only a mother of four sons would know that. Michael Frampton Gosh, how old were they when it happened? Maggie Dent Yeah, that was, that would cover 22, 20, 18 and 14. Michael Frampton Oh, okay. Yeah. Is that, that sort of 14–15, that's, is that the age where you just, you have to sort of let go? Maggie Dent Oh look, you know, and I think it was even before we really had the science to show, I mean, I was a high school teacher, so I taught them, and we all know the age of 14, they turn into kind of Neanderthal apes. Really. There's an awful lot of crazy behavior. 'Cause they're wired to hang out with mates and make 'em laugh and be stupid. And often it's the physicality, which many—often women don't understand. So punching and slapping and wrestling isn't a sign of aggression. It's actually a sign of connection with a lot of boys. So in my English classrooms, there were just days, I'd just be rolling my head going, no dude, that's it. Outside afterwards, right? Can we get on with the English? Oh yeah, miss, sorry, miss. You know, and that whole—they use lightness, laughter, and physicality to try to deal with the incredible stress that they're living with because they haven't got a clue what's going on. They don't know their brain is pruning everything, which means they're even more forgetful, even more poorly organized, even more impulsive, uh, and are wired for risk. When you get the science, you see them through such a different lens, Mike, and I, I loved, you know, I absolutely loved boys in that window, and that was kind of firstly before I had my own, and then even more so after I had my own, 'cause that was my house. Michael Frampton Yeah. No, and I, I have three boys. So— Maggie Dent How old are yours? Michael Frampton Eight, nine, and 12. Maggie Dent Wow. Right there. We're on the cusp of that beautiful journey, and please don't listen to all the doomsayers. You know, like I, I probably had, I reckon we worked it out when we had a couple, not long ago, my boys are now, 43, 41, 39, and 34, 35, and they were—we talked about it. We reckon there were five big moments. That were, yeah, that were really scary and a bit frightening and not necessarily involving them. More their mates. They lost a couple of mates in a car accident… mm-hmm, in a cousin, in a plane crash. There were moments where one got diagnosed with type one diabetes, knee reconstructions, crash cars, broken hearts, you name it. When you put it in that perspective, you know that with four boys. So it's not half as bad as the world paints it to be. That's why I've written my latest book. 'Cause if you get a way of communicating—and it doesn't matter if it's girls or boys—that doesn't sound like you're a grown-up who knows everything, that you're a grown-up who just damn cares and can how bumpy that ride was, then you know what? They'll turn to you. They'll turn to us. And quite often, it was their—the boys would actually get their mates. They come in some days and say, “Mum, can you talk to him?” And I go, “Why?” And he said, “'Cause he's being a dickhead in class. And he's gonna get in trouble, he's gonna get expelled. Can you just have a bit of a chat, but don't tell him I told you.” And so there is a genuine concern for friendships in that window. And quite often teens are more worried about their friends than they are themselves. Michael Frampton Mm-hmm. So it's one of those, you know, I call it a, a bit of a hack is that, you know, check in with how are your friends going as these exams are coming, or are any of your friends vaping? Go by the friend door and there's a more chance the door stays open. If you go straight at them, bang, it's shut. Interesting. So what—so your boys were getting you to talk to their friends. Were you one of the few adults that would actually just listen to them rather than straight away give them advice or something? Maggie Dent Yeah, I think I was. I was kind of born to be that lighthouse figure. I can still in my boarding school days having chats to my own age group. Making sense of stuff. I don't know—did I grow—was I born old? I don't know. But also being a lighthouse figure while I was teaching, you know, the kids all knew that you can hang around and talk to Mrs. Dent. And also if they were worried about one of their friends, and in actual fact there were a couple that were contemplating suicide that their mates came and told me about. And I was able to actually be there right near that time because where are the safe people that they can turn to? So it's great if we've got a warm, loving relationship with your parents, even though you are wired to push 'em back. Because you're meant to start individuating into being an adult. It doesn't matter, girls or boys—girls start earlier than boys, which again makes boys often look like they're even thicker than they were. It's not their fault. And then as they go forward, is there a safe grown-up? And that really is why I ended up leaving teaching English. And then I became a relief teacher. 'Cause I really was drowning in English marking. So with four sons obviously. So I became the relief supply teacher. So that meant I could say no if someone was sick or—and I loved it 'cause I'm a bit of a, you know, basketball freak. So quite often I liked the phys ed classes the best, because there's not so much sitting, 'cause I'm not good at sitting for long periods of time. Then I realized, anyone can teach 'em how to write a paragraph or an essay, but I don't know. You know, not everyone can do what I can do when they're really struggling. So I did a post-grad diploma in counseling and therapy and set up a counseling and training center, which was in—oh God—1998. Yeah. And that began the whole different journey for me. And it's been interesting as this book launched because I kind of went back to where I started. So I've locked the gate, 10 books for parents—no more. I might write fiction or something next. But I've had all these messages, you know, via socials 'cause they can find me. And there was a really big feature in Western Australia, which of course embarrasses my sons, but anyone I counseled or taught, they all were reaching out and I just sobbed for the first two weeks because of the gratitude that was coming. Because having that capacity to shut up and really listen, and kind of hear them and see them and validate them, that's something that you can learn. But for some people—and the most exceptional of our teachers and coaches have that ability—mm-hmm. But we can learn it. And I think that’s, you know, it wasn’t hard for me to know how to do it. 'Cause I was such a moody, dark teen myself. Michael Frampton So, yeah. Uh, I think as parents, often, I know when my boys—if they come to me with a problem—my initial thought is, here’s the solution. Isn’t it obvious? Yes, you idiot. But I have to tell myself, no, no. Just repeat back to them what they said—like empathy. Just hear them out, let them vent. Then quite often they’ll figure it out themselves or maybe they’ll ask a specific question. But I just always have to stop myself from just giving advice willy-nilly. Maggie Dent I know, and it’s because when they’re younger, that’s absolutely valid. Because they’re young and they’re kids. But as they go on this journey, their prefrontal is growing and the capacity to learn things is growing, even not as fast as we’d like. And boys are again, later than girls. But if we keep solving all their problems, we deny the capacity for them to be able to solve their own problems when they leave home. So in other words, we make them even more incapable of living an independent life. And I know it’s so hard, you know, when they do some of the big muck-up that I write about in the book—you know, you find the bong under the bed or there’s vapes or a used condom or whatever. Our number one first reaction as a parent—it’s biologically been proven—is to get really angry. Michael Frampton Hmm. Maggie Dent And the same will happen if you lose a toddler in the supermarket. Your first reaction is anger, which apparently they don’t really know why, but we do it. And then, so you can imagine what happens with a teenager who’s just realized, or—you know, they know what’s coming. If we come at them with anger, we aren’t going to facilitate that to be a teachable moment, an opportunity for reflection, or giving them the they need right now. And the big one there is: can you still love me even though I’ve messed up? These are the really big things. So that’s why I keep on going through—you turn up with calmness, even if you have to walk for a few hours to get yourself back into regulation. It’s worth even leaving it 24 hours. And that’s not easy for women. We are biologically wired to have it out right now. Whereas we know that’s the female brain—it goes from fired up to word center. And the boy brain and the male brain goes from fired up to the body, into the body, and then at some point later it could come up into the word center, which is why I advocate so often for taking your son for a walk. Michael Frampton Yep. Maggie Dent Go for a walk. Michael Frampton Yeah. Maggie Dent You know, somewhere—if you can feed him, even better. And there’s a beautiful story that came from a dad who heard a podcast I did with Richard Fidler on conversations about this—just connect, and know if they’re hungry, they can’t listen anyway. So he—their 14-year-old boy was getting into so much trouble at school. You know, he was on the verge of getting expelled, he’d already had some suspensions, and they just couldn’t get to the bottom of it. You know, they banned everything and they punished him and it was just awful. And the dad walked in the door and said, “Just heard this lady on the radio. I’m gonna try something different.” She said, “Yeah, the school’s called again.” And he’s just called out, “Hey dude, come for a walk.” The son was very suspicious—as they will be—the first time you start coming on a different angle. “Where did you get this from?” Walked up to the Macca’s, which was a K and a half away. Mm-hmm. They just sat and ate a big bucket of chips and had a smoothie and stuff. And then on the way—halfway on the way home—the boy started to cry. He told his dad that these year 11 boys had been bullying him and they bailed him up when they caught him in the toilets, and they’d said if he dobs, they’re gonna cut him. Michael Frampton Mm. Maggie Dent And he was able to give it all to his dad. And as he walked, you know, his dad held him and said, “No mate, that’s not gonna happen. We’ve got your back, we’ve got this.” Really. He didn’t even go into anger ‘cause it came from a different space. Right? It just came up, and it was easy to be empathetic. Anyways, he walked in the house, the boy’s called out, “Hi Mum,” and he’s gone to his room. And she said, “What the heck?” And he said, “Who would’ve thought—a walk and a bucket of chips.” Now we’ve got to the bottom of it. And he said that’s a really powerful thing for us to . All of those things in it. Can you just sit with me so I can get the courage first? But also the fact that my word center opens much better after movement. I use a basketball hoop—I’m a tragic basketballer. I’d shoot hoops, and then my boys, if I was worried about them— Michael Frampton Yeah. Maggie Dent Yeah. It could take 20 minutes. Michael Frampton Yeah. Maggie Dent Yeah. And I can go, “Is everything okay? You look a bit—you sound a bit off.” And, you know, gradually little bits come out. But if I confront him in the kitchen, especially if his brothers were there— Michael Frampton Shut down. Maggie Dent Yeah. Yeah. And men are the same too. We connect, you know, standing side by side, doing something. Michael Frampton Yeah. Maggie Dent Not this eyeball stuff. Michael Frampton Yes. Maggie Dent Yeah. There’s another really big part that I wrote about in From Boys to Men a lot, which I learned from my boys. And you gotta get the timing right. You know, like if they’ve just got out of bed—nah, it’s not a time for a conversation. They’ve got an erection in front of you, that’s not a time. If they’ve got their phone, it’s not a time. If they’re eating, it’s not a time. In school after night, it’s not a time. Getting ready for bed, it’s not a time. If they’re gaming, it’s not a time. You’ve gotta find this window. And quite often that window will be in the car, especially if you wanna have a big conversation, Mike. If you wanna just sow a seed. People keep saying, “I don’t know how to talk to my son about pornography,” or something. We don’t go at it with one big conversation. We go at it with lots of small ones. And a great way to start that conversation—as you’re driving at 110 with only your son in the car, possibly in the back seat—is to say, “Mate, I meant to mention this to you for a while. I’ve just been reading a lot of information about, you know, how many young kids and boys particularly are watching porn. And I just want to tell you that one day I want you to have fabulous sex. But I’m gonna tell you—porn won’t give it to you, mate.” That’s the mic drop. Boom. You say nothing else. You’ve dropped something that you’re gonna go up and pick up later in a different, well-timed moment. So that, you know—otherwise they just—because they can’t get out at 110. Michael Frampton That’s good. I like that framing because essentially you’re—that is what they want. Maggie Dent Yes. Michael Frampton And you’re acknowledging—yeah, of course you want that. And I want that for you too. Maggie Dent Yeah, totally right. But that is—that’s seriously not gonna do it for you. And of course I think that one of the things that’s been coming up a lot, which is quite problematic here in Australia—and maybe where you are—is boys who’ve been ranking girls. Now, when I’ve spoken to my boys over the years, and I’ve seen the ranking sheets when I was teaching—45 years ago—but it was “super hot” to “freezing cold.” Whereas now with the influence of pornography and the misogynistic content online, it’s notable. Oh, right. And totally fable. Right? So the language has changed. The intention under it is probably still in the same alignment—that it’s this kind of fun game, “let’s rank the girls,” without recognizing that it can be really, really harmful. And then the second thing that’s quite problematic at the moment, which AI is now creating opportunities for—you know, where we can take a photo of a girl off her socials and put her in a disgusting, sexualized position—still thinking it’s funny. So that line in the sand is something I talk about a lot, which is: there’s a line in the sand when we’re being kind of funny and trying to back our mates’ life, and there’s a line where it’s actually hurtful and potentially illegal. And I’m gonna have many conversations with you so that you know where the line is in of the values of our home. Michael Frampton Yeah. Maggie Dent Because I want you to be a man who’s proud of himself. Michael Frampton Right. Maggie Dent Yeah. Yeah. And these choices aren’t gonna set you up on that pathway. Michael Frampton Yeah, there’s so many things like that where I’m not quite there with my—he’s 12 still, so we’re on the cusp of talking to some of that stuff. But mostly it’s about—it’s almost like, you know, all of his friends—we live in quite a sort of an okay area, so all of his friends have an iPhone. I’ve only bought him a flip phone two months ago, ‘cause I’m—no. I’m saying no. You can call your friends, but you’re not going on social media, having access to the internet. Not on my watch. So that’s been great. He can now call his friends, but, you know, his friends all have iPhones and they all have PlayStations in their rooms and—yeah. Maggie Dent And Mike, you do realize he can sit next to those boys on the school bus. Michael Frampton Yes. Maggie Dent And so he’s gonna be exposed to it, and he is also gonna feel the peer pressure—feel sort of left out in some sort of way. Michael Frampton Yeah. Maggie Dent So how do we negotiate that? Because he sees my point of view and he’s seen—I’ve shown him some of Jonathan Haidt’s work and he’s like, “This is how bad it is. You can’t deny this.” And he gets that. 'Cause he wants to—he wants to be an athlete and he wants to look after himself. But he’s also feeling the peer pressure of, “Come around to my house and watch this,” or “Do this.” So how do we negotiate that culturally? Maggie Dent We know that not all of it is harmful. And that is, you know, I’m part of the big movement that’s trying to shape those tech companies to just shift those algorithms—because they could change the algorithms tomorrow. That would take the harmful content away from all of our kids under 18. Michael Frampton Mm. Maggie Dent They wouldn’t see porn, they wouldn’t see the misogynistic stuff. They wouldn’t see it. And so what we’re trying to do by banning it to 16—everything, social media—is that they might go, “God, we’re gonna lose some serious coin here, so let’s just alter the algorithm because we don’t want to lose that market.” Right? Michael Frampton Mm. Maggie Dent And that’s really—you know, whether we can get there, I don’t know. We know all the difficulties, but banning doesn’t necessarily teach our kids. They’re going to be a digital native. So my challenge to us is, you know, as late as possible—which you’re doing really super well—but also how can they, you know, can they FaceTime their friends on their phone with your phone? So it’s actually not a call—‘cause who calls as a tween or a teen? No, we don’t. Or an app on your phone that you monitor and you keep an eye on so that they’re part of the group. And it needs to be just one—and preferably not Insta or TikTok, both a bit dodgy—but one app that the other families are aware of. So we’re actually gonna monitor one and keep them as safe as we can, knowing what is going on. And one of the biggest challenges at the moment is it’s not just seeing pornography—it’s the sextortion. Where a 14-year-old boy really thinks it’s a 14-year-old girl that’s flirting with them online. And of course when she asks for the dick pic—you know, every boy wants to show their best friend to somebody who likes them. That’s just a little bit of a thing I cover in my seminars. If that is a sexual predator, then the shaming that is coming up later—now it’s 94% of boys aged 14 to 17—and we have had boys die by suicide as a sequence of that shaming. So you can see again, those are the conversations if you keep having with your son, he’s aware of what dangers are out there. But also, one day, you know, we are gonna step you forward into this space because you can access fantastic services on there. There are some—you know, if you’re into music, there are some great music ones that you can have, you know, playlists. If he’s into surfing, he can watch other dudes who are doing stuff. Do you know what I mean? So while we need to know it’s potential for harm, we need to know it still has a potential for connection, which is a really big part of this journey. But the fact that you’re in that sort of an area, you’re having those conversations, and you are letting him access those things—and he’s already active. If he’s not out there doing some things in real time, then I get worried. If it’s not organized sport, is it riding your bikes? Is it going surfing with friends? Is it—you know, what are we doing in real time? Because I’m extremely concerned about our kids with social anxiety ‘cause they’ve just been in a bedroom. Michael Frampton Yes. Maggie Dent Staying safe—technically—but no capacity for making great choices in the social context of the world, which also means your capacity to be a resilient, capable, independent human has been compromised. Because those opportunities have been displaced. By the damn phone. Michael Frampton Yeah. Well, all three of my boys are—they’re mad on football. They love sports and they’re always out and about and doing that, and they’re very confident. They’ll talk to anyone. So— Maggie Dent They’re doing well. They’re doing well in that regard. They happen. Yeah. Michael Frampton But my question would be that, like—obviously this—as they get older, they’re gonna get exposed to more and more stuff, especially once they get to high school. And you know, if he doesn’t have a smartphone with access to the internet— Maggie Dent Yeah. Michael Frampton Someone does. And he’s gonna get exposed to a lot of stuff. So I guess, what’s the overarching principle? Because you can’t be there all the time and you can’t—you also don’t want to be. Right? What’s the overarching principle? If there’s one thing you could give to all parents, what should be consistent throughout the boys’ life? Maggie Dent I think it’s a very simple—and it’s a three-rules—that I think if every family had it and we came back to just three rules instead of too many rules is that: you know, as you go forward in life, you’re gonna make choices. And what I want you to be aware of is every choice has a consequence. So I want you to be aware that the choices you make don’t hurt yourself, and they don’t hurt anyone else, and you’re not damaging the world around you. Right? So it’s a call to—yeah, that you’re gonna make some impulsive choices. And if you do, then how are you gonna make it right? That’s what grows into a good human later, is—we are all gonna make mistakes. And we still do. Trust me, I still do. So I’m gonna call it that—ah, that wasn’t a very good choice, was it? Now I need to make it right. And I need to make sure that I’m gonna think about what I might do next time. So it’s just having those ongoing conversations totally, rather than coming at our kids with the shame, the blame, and the punishment, which is still lingering from last century. We know now it’s not terribly effective. And what it tends to do is create shame inside people. And shame inside people means the inner critic becomes even louder and they can really struggle with this sense of self and their sense of self-worth. So when we have great humans who create those opportunities—even if you just grab a small chat of something you’re watching on TV—you know, “God, what do you reckon? That wasn’t really consent, was it? They just moved on in, didn’t they?” Just drop these little moments. What happens then if you are safe—we want our kids to know if something happens online or something happens in the real world one day—because it can happen anywhere: at a party, on the way home from school, or one of your friends is doing something really harmful—we want them to turn to us or a significant lighthouse figure. And so we say to them, “If it’s not me, you know, who else is it?” You’ve got to have a safe landing place on this journey to adulthood. And that—the big line underneath it—is just: no matter what. Michael Frampton So… Maggie Dent I’m gonna love you no matter what. And your lighthouse figure’s got your back no matter what. But together, we’re gonna work forward through this. Because the most successful people in life have all made mistakes. And it’s not a sign that there’s something wrong with you—it’s a sign you are human. And we all have hard times. So I just want you to know, if I’ve got a hard time, I’m gonna let you guys know so that we can kind of gather together. And that’s a really big message—it’s you’re never on your own. Because that was the thing when I worked with a number of teens who were contemplating ending their lives—they would say, “No one cares. I don’t matter. And the world would be better off without me.” Michael Frampton Hmm. Maggie Dent We can fix those. Michael Frampton Yeah. Shame is a big, big, big one. And like you alluded to, I think it was ed down from my parents and the parents before that. That’s kind of—that’s the way they did it. Maggie Dent That’s it. And there was physical abuse—it was a normal way. If you didn’t, you know, spare the rod, you’re gonna have a horrible child. And fortunately we have the science of child development now that shows that warm, connected, responsive parenting—it’s just not fluffy stuff. It’s what you do in those big moments. Where you—how you hold the boundaries. You don’t clip your kid around the head to get that boundary. You don’t give them a belting if they’re drunk. But you’re coming alongside them to reaffirm that boundary and that there may be a consequence as a result of not being able to do something. And I love a beautiful example a dad told me—he said he got it off me, the idea came off one of my seminars, which I can’t even —but it was you give them three chances. So if they’re leaving their bike—and that’s what this boy was doing—he’d ride home from school, leave his bike straight behind the car. His dad had said to him—and then he’d come home from the seminar—he said, “Mate, I’m gonna give you three goes to make sure you can put that away without me having to do it ‘cause I don’t wanna drive over your bike.” Anyway, after two goes, it was still dropped, and the boy comes home from school. He says, “Dad, I can’t reach my bike.” He says, “Why is that, mate?” He says, “Yeah, it’s up near the ceiling in the garage.” And he said, “Yeah, yeah, it’s gonna stay there for a bit.” And he says, “Why?” He says, “ I had that conversation—that if you—you know—then I’m—well, it’s obvious you can’t do it yet. And I’m worried about your bike and I’m worried about you. So let me know when you are ready to have another go at riding your bike and putting it in a safe place. And I’ll get it down. But I reckon you can have a few days without it.” Michael Frampton Mm. Maggie Dent Right. See the difference in the learning? Michael Frampton No, I like that. Maggie Dent It is technically a form of discomfort. I believe you just need to create discomfort—not punishment. Michael Frampton Yeah. Maggie Dent Punishment is when we hurt them. And this is mildly uncomfortable and inconvenient. And I have—one of mine actually, he was into that sort of 15-year-old wanting to punch his 13-year-old brother, but it was harder than he used to do it. So he was trying to be a macho male and he’s the alpha boy. And I gave him—you know, these three—I said, “Look mate, if you’re unable to pull that back, then I’m having your surfboard for a week.” He said, “No you won’t.” I said, “Yes, I am.” Anyway, yep, and he’d kind of—you know, he’d been kind of trying, but he still swung and gave him a good crack around the TV one night. And so I said, “So it’s a week. I’ve got your board. It’s in my room.” Was not happy. Was not happy. Anyway, I was the worst mother on Earth of course. Michael Frampton Mm-hmm. Maggie Dent And I was quite happy to be the worst mother on Earth ‘cause that’s actually what happens with good parenting. And he knew then there would be—yep. Anyway, I got to day six and I sat down with him and said, “So, what do you reckon about this kind of—have you got an idea around it now? What else you can do? Can you back it off?” And he said, “Yeah.” And I said, “Well, you can have your board.” He said, “Not a week?” And I said, “Well, you’ve just said you reckon you’ve got it, so I reckon I’ll give you another chance ‘cause I believe in second chances. I also believe in third chances. And we’ll see how we go with it.” And I never had another problem. Michael Frampton Hmm. Maggie Dent However, they did bring it up at my 50th birthday with the other one. I had a sugar freak—totally, right—and he was—what was he doing? He was doing something else equally as annoying. Anyway, I said, “No, there will be no dessert for a week.” And he went, “You wouldn’t do that. You know I couldn’t live without that.” Anyway, so he’s got up at my 50th birthday and said, “Mum is so tough. Did you know once she—she wouldn’t let me have dessert for a week?” And everyone just fell on the ground laughing. And he just is still really, like, “My mum was the toughest mum ever.” And that behavior also didn’t happen again. Michael Frampton Isn’t that funny? Maggie Dent Yeah. Michael Frampton Yeah. Maggie Dent Right? So they’ll hold—they’ll hold onto that: “I didn’t have sugar for a week.” It’s better than, “I got the strap,” that’s for sure. Michael Frampton Right? Maggie Dent Yes. Generations—man, you got the belt. Oh God. I love it because it’s all about perspective. But what it’s done is it’s just said, “Look, I’m holding this boundary ‘cause I’m the adult and you don’t have power over me.” We work together with most stuff—you have choices. And that’s another big thing I think. Where we had no autonomy in the past—except we did have a lot of autonomy, ‘cause we weren’t in the house very much. Kids in those previous generations, “Make sure you’re back when the lights come on,” had not—so they had a massive amount of free autonomy. And then they came into a tough system. But they actually had that. So today they almost have too much freedom without boundaries, which doesn’t help you make good decisions later. ‘Cause you get into a work environment and you’ve got to be there at a certain time. You’ve got to actually work, even if you’re not feeling like it or it’s boring. You don’t develop those things if you’ve been able to get away with those mildly uncomfortable things like chores. And those sorts of things. I was super tough. My boys—if they broke a surfboard, they got the big foamy for the next few months till a birthday or Christmas, and I gave them specific chores to earn money towards their new board. And I can once they all came home—similar ages—and I said, “I was pretty tough, wasn’t I, about that?” And they said, “Well, actual fact Mum, we’ve already had a conversation about this and we are really glad you did. Because we really value our stuff. We look after our boards, our wetties, our cars. Whereas we’ve got friends that just trash their stuff.” And I went, “Oh, okay.” So isn’t it interesting—as their prefrontal lobe grows and they start reflecting through a different lens other than a teenage boy lens—they land on a very different perspective of it. Because they still were surrounded by a warm, loving human. But she just had boundaries that were not negotiable. And I was a good cook. That was another reason. Michael Frampton But that must have been quite like—as a parent—to set a boundary like that. And whilst it’s not a punishment per se, it’s more of, you know—it ends up punishing you, doesn’t it? Maggie Dent Oh, it always— Michael Frampton It’s a long week. Maggie Dent Yeah, exactly. Michael Frampton And that’s why— Maggie Dent Welcome to parenting. You know, if we wanted our children to think that they’re gonna run around in a field of daisies and everything’s gonna be lovely—we are dreaming. Michael Frampton Yeah. But you got that—you got that gratification when they were probably over 25. Once they realized, you know. Maggie Dent Yeah. Yeah. And I think that’s one of the beautiful things—you know why I talk about why surfing was so good for the boys—because they couldn’t control the outcomes. So at times, you know, they’d go out with great enthusiasm, they’re sure they’re gonna get the best waves and it’s gonna be the peak moment of their life. And some blooming offshore wind happens, or something happens, and it all flattens out and they get back and they’re really pissed off with it. So it’s really good that they know what discomfort feels like—or what we call frustration tolerance—because I feel today’s, many of today’s kids—we , we change -the-parcel rules so they don’t get sat at a birthday party—so they’re actually less capable of dealing with setbacks and hard times and things that don’t work out how they want. Whereas that was one of those beautiful gifts that I felt going surfing was providing them—not just once or twice, it was, you know and just recently there was about a five-week stint here where there was no surf. And my surfer—my son who’s a lawyer—so he works really long hours from home, and he was in the end—you know, he’s got into the second week and said, “Oh, I’m just going swimming now.” Right? He missed the ocean so much, he’s just gone for a swim in the ocean pool. 'Cause it just—it resets him. Michael Frampton Yeah. Maggie Dent It’s like—they’ve all said it’s a part of their mental health. It resets them into something that nothing in the home or in the—nothing else does it. They’ve all played different sports, but surfing’s the one that resets them. And I think it’s that profound connection with Mother Nature in a way that—it’s always familiar. Salty water smells and tastes like salty water every time, right? And the ebb and flow of waves—it’s kind of, after all these years, she’s like a second mother figure that holds them until they reset. So it’s a beautiful capacity of self-regulation that is following them into adulthood. And I’ve spoken to some older surfers and they said that sometimes, “I don’t care if I don’t get a wave.” Michael Frampton Yep. Maggie Dent “I just—getting on the board and paddling out and just waiting—that is where I reset. That’s where I have a chance to ponder and reflect or just—” And it was one of the boys’ mates who said to me once—he was probably only about 20 and he had had some really big stuff going on in his life—and he said, “The best place for me to figure out where shit is going down is waiting for a wave.” And I felt, what—isn’t that gold? Another boy said to me—he wrote in his English class, he was in year 11, which is 16—and he said, “The closest you can get to God is in that blue tube—is in that wave.” And I—that’s when I realized it was way bigger than me. ‘Cause I—seriously, I’m a farmer’s daughter, there was no surf near me, no waves. And I swim in ocean pools ‘cause I know I’m not gonna get eaten by a shark. But I’m never gonna go—no waves scare the heck out of me, right? So it took me a while to really comprehend what was going on on many different levels. And why me having to get out of bed early every weekend to go and look for bloody waves was the best thing I could do as a mother of boys who liked to surf. Even if they didn’t get one, we drove from beach to beach to beach or whatever. The banter in the car, the conversations about which directions, them working it out together, they were problem-solving together, they were communicating together. I just—I learned so much being a witness to something I didn’t understand. And originally, in my days, the only people who surfed were dopeheads, weren’t they? Which is the other reason I think—just being able to expose them to the unpredictability of life. And that risk is something that you can get better at if you have opportunities. Which is why I’m a nature play advocate. Why I want the long monkey bars back. Why I want them climbing trees. Our kids can get better at it if we actually allow them to move into those spaces with their own intuitiveness and their own early warning systems and their own—because they actually are wired to keep themselves alive. And we shouldn’t have to be there always plucking them out of things so that they stay safe. Michael Frampton Yes. Safety is not such a good thing. Maggie Dent No, I agree. Let them make the mistakes while they’re young and made of rubber, and the consequences are a lot smaller than when they’re 15. That gives them that—like you said—the autonomy. Right. And the self-confidence. Michael Frampton Yeah. And I love those analogies with surfing you’re talking about. ‘Cause surfing is something that’s so much bigger than us. Obviously you didn’t know it back then, but since your boys started, books like Blue Mind have been written. Maggie Dent Yeah. Michael Frampton We know how getting out into nature—and especially with water—how it affects the brain. Inherently, whether you realize it or not, your subconscious brain realizes how risky it is to enter the ocean. So there’s—you’re satisfying that risk, connection with Mother Nature, the unpredictability/slash safety boundary, and all of that. Maggie Dent When I look back to the—and that was really the first book I ever read was Steve Biddulph’s Raising Boys. And I when he wrote Manhood and he talked in there—‘cause I’ve done a lot of work with men and I think it’s partly ‘cause I spent most of my childhood with my dad—‘cause he was my attachment figure, not my mum—that I have an ability to see a lens through both male and female. And I’ve worked a lot in shearing sheds and in recovery from disasters and things. And when I talk to men, the understanding too of making sense of stuff through inner processing—and that men are actually a lot deeper than they’re perceived to be—and that when they work out their own values around things, they’re quite deep. Whereas sometimes—this is a sweeping generalization—women are often shifting around and not being quite so anchored. So learning really that Steve talks about the wild man. And if we recognize that we are still biologically linked to our earliest of mankind, the number one—the two biggest roles for men were to keep everyone else safe and alive. So it was to protect and to provide. And there are so many of those biological drives that still tend to drive our—and also the females as well, even though we can do either side of things. You know, we have amazing women in our armed forces and fire response—firefighters and things—so we know that we can. There is a proportion that can swap over. But I think there’s something about the wildness, the uncontained part of that. And I kept suggesting that it’s a really good thing for men with their mates to go and have a few wild days. Just the same as women love going and—whatever, book club weekends or whatever. It’s really good for that. If you’ve got a friendship circle, it’s incredibly cup-filling to stop having to be responsible for your family and your partner and whatever for just a couple of days. And it—whatever they wanna do. Whether it’s a golfing weekend, and there’s something that is about filling us up. ‘Cause it allows almost like the boy within us—or the girl within us—to just stop having to be responsible all the time. And it’s usually—whatever fills that cup. And sometimes it’s fishing trips, it’s golfing trips, it’s surfing trips. So two of mine have been on surf trips with their mates from high school this year. And listening to them and—yeah, it was just—you know, magical. And also you don’t realize that sometimes guys’ friendships were actually formed early in life. So it’s another thing that surfing often does. Of course, you can play in different sporting teams. But if you go surfing with the same kind of guys, you are actually deepening a bond of connection even through the silence of those moments. And often guys don’t have as much time later in life to form the same depth of friendship. So a lot of them—it’s linked back there. I read a study recently—it’s 400 hours to develop a deep friendship. Michael Frampton Wow. Maggie Dent So you can see how, if you’re in an area and you stay in that area and you hang out with certain boys, it’s often—that’s where your 400 hours will come from. Whereas with girls and women, they’ll prioritize hanging out with a new friend till they build up their 400 hours, so they can actually create new, significant friendships. I found that really fascinating because I’ve written a piece about fragile boy friendships and that they often just have to be in proximity. And we’re all busy now, and parents are more busy, there’s not much neighborhood play, and so they’re not getting the same amount of 400 hours to develop a friendship that they look back on and— Michael Frampton Yeah. Maggie Dent —which is interesting. Michael Frampton Yeah, does that make sense? Maggie Dent Yeah. Michael Frampton Yeah, it does. Yeah. And even—yeah, just sitting there with a friend, not—you don’t have to be talking. You just—you know—you’ve got each other’s back. You’re sitting there in the ocean or— Maggie Dent Yep. Michael Frampton Even if the other one’s in the car, you still—you know you’ve got each other’s back. Maggie Dent Yeah, so interesting. And one of the beautiful things I found—so my oldest had a battle with bowel cancer. He was diagnosed on his 40th birthday, which wasn’t exactly the gift he wanted. And what I loved was how much he got from not just his brothers but his mates he surfed with. They stepped up. People often talk about guys not being really open and honest—I was just blown away. And yeah, it was—it was a big part. ‘Cause I couldn’t fill that cup, you know? Michael Frampton Yeah. Maggie Dent As his mum, neither could his wife. But those mates—you know, they were nearly on a plane over, the ones from WA. And the ones that were scattered around—they checked in at times and they asked big questions. He was able to really own it. Not just say, “Oh, it’s fine. It’s all good. I’m handling it.” No, they wanted to know the ins and outs. And so again, that proximity of time that they’ve spent means that we are more likely to turn up in the crisis moments. And then, you know, one of the biggest issues that we are noticing with men’s mental health later in life is loneliness. Michael Frampton Yes. Maggie Dent So that’s yet another thing I think you’ll find in significant surfing communities. You’ll have older guys still surfing, still ready to have a chat, still—you know what I mean? So not as significantly lonely as without something like that. Michael Frampton Yeah. Surfing gives everything—almost gives community as well. All of that. As long as it’s not a job and doesn’t provide you money, it almost gives everything else. Maggie Dent Yeah. And of course you help lots of other surfers who need to make money from that. Michael Frampton Yes. Maggie Dent I go right back—in Albany, what was her name? Jodie—what was Jodie’s last name? She was one of the first female surfers out there, around Layne Beachley’s time. But it was really interesting ‘cause she had brothers, so she was kind of part boy. And the skate track opened up over there—the first time we ever had a skate—skateboard. It was the first one in Australia. It’s interesting, isn’t it? It was set up by her dad and a lot of whole guys that were in town. And so watching it—watching her—there were days she wagged it, you know, because the surf was good. And there was one teacher who would probably be okay with that. And that was me. Michael Frampton Yeah. Get ‘em outside. Everyone should be outside more. Sitting in classrooms is the worst thing for them, isn’t it? In some ways. Maggie Dent Yeah. Hopefully that changes one day soon. Michael Frampton And you touched on something I’d like to ask you about. You mentioned men—traditionally providers and protectors. That leads me to a slightly taboo question for the times we are living in, but—how would you define masculinity? Maggie Dent Oh golly. And I’m a really ionate believer that there is no such thing as toxic masculinity. Michael Frampton Thank you. Maggie Dent I get really cross when we label it like that because I’ve worked—I’ve been surrounded by exceptional men and I meet them all the time. So it’s not the gender that is toxic. There are toxic males. But I’ve also met many toxic females. So I guess my—you know, being surrounded by men and my dad was an exceptional man as well—is that I think the man of today, given the societal shift towards men turning up to want to be equal, team parents, wanting to turn up with their big heart—it’s very much exactly what Steve Biddulph had talked about all those years ago: that we want men who turn up with backbone and heart. So we actually—there are times that we need your physical capacity to be strong and stabilize the ship. But we also know that in our relationships, you don’t have to be the stoic, tough guy anymore. And that in actual fact, in my work around relationships and counseling, especially around trauma and death and dying, is that when a man owns his struggling to a female partner or wife, what happens is she then activates her masculinity, and she becomes this absolute fierce lioness. And she’ll cover that guy’s back like you won’t believe. He’ll be so ed so he can stay in that vulnerable state getting whatever he needs. What happens though if he shuts down and keeps it from her? Then there will be just more and more distance. And he will struggle alone. And that’s why one of the reasons that so often with a major death in a family of a child, there’s a really high degree of divorce. Because men are still driven by those big societal things that you’re supposed to be tough, you’re supposed to deal with it—you know, toughen up. Where in actual fact, that’s not how we process major trauma. And one of the experiences I had, which I treat with incredible respect, was I was called—I’d already been into an area in Western Australia where there was massive bushfire. And at the small community outside, these guys had fought for five days with no extra . They’d lost most of the primary school, many farms, and they lost one of their most significant community and two of his workmen. So they were shattered, right? So I’d gone and run a couple of community seminars talking about recovery and stuff. And then the men, about three months later, they found some funding to get me to come back, and it was a shed full of men. And what they wanted to know was, why were they still feeling so lousy? So I had to put it through the context of, well, you know what? You went to fight, as you are biologically wired to fight—to be the hero and defender of your community—but every day you are driving around and you are seeing how you failed. You see that it didn’t—so that’s feeding into you a sense of not enough. Not all that shit that you’ve been told—you have to be the hero and everything. And I said, what you’ve got is also grief. You are grieving not only the guy you lost—you’re grieving where your community was before. You’re grieving that there are so many that are really on their knees. And that’s grief. And grief is just a bitch of a thing because it lasts so much longer than you think. But you’re also dealing with what I call situational distress. And that’s that continual reminders of it. And the guy who was killed in the fire—his twin sons were in the front row. And so it was a really powerful moment for the guys to realize that when people keep—your wife keeps saying, “Why aren’t you talking about it? You need to talk about it,” I said, it’s not actually really helpful for a lot of men. Talking works for women—it doesn’t work for men. So I need to give you permission that you are actually processing so many layers of grief at the moment—that that’s why you are tired, why you’re even more grumpy, why you’re finding it hard to get out of bed—it’s because you are processing it. But you are processing it, and you are probably halfway through it. But it’s not a magical, “Oh God, today it’s all over.” But I’m gonna give you permission that if you do actually feel like you want to sit down and just howl—you have it. You have permission from this group. You will never be judged in this area. And then kind of after, when I left—it was interesting because about two weeks later, BlazeAid is this beautiful organization where retired farmers and men with their wives turn up with caravans and they rebuild fences for free. It’s just the most beautiful thing. And the BlazeAid people—it was about four or five caravans—they’ve always got a campfire going. And over the next few weeks, every now and then about nine o’clock at night, a farmer would turn up with a beer and just have a yarn around the fire. And quite often—that’s when the tears were coming. Michael Frampton Yeah. Maggie Dent So they don’t want to cry, they don’t want to break down in front of the woman they love particularly, or their children. Michael Frampton Yeah. Maggie Dent But they will if there’s another safe place for that. And that’s something, when you understand it, it makes perfect sense, doesn’t it? Michael Frampton Yes, it does. And we’re seeing a lot of men’s groups that are facilitating that sort of stuff coming up a lot too. So that’s good. Maggie Dent Ah, so good. My hubby—he ed a Men’s Walk group during COVID and it’s been the best thing. Like he—yeah, he and that group—and in that, he’s developed a new friendship with a guy he really likes. And I’ve just seen such a happier husband. Michael Frampton Yeah. Maggie Dent But I could have told him till the cows came home, “A bit of exercise would be good for you.” But what he actually needed—he was—he actually needed the company. He was lonely. Because there’s only so much of our cups we can fill. Michael Frampton Yeah. Maggie Dent And I think that’s—and also the men—you know, the story that we tell ourselves is sometimes incorrect. You know, the narratives we’ve learned over the years. And there was this beautiful man who I had actually ed—his—I was a bereavement person and a death doula—ed his wife as she died. And she had two sons—beautiful sons. And he was there like every day. He was just full-on, right there. He is a beautiful man. And after the funeral, which was a beautiful celebration of her life, and the boys spoke beautifully in that—anyway, I just noticed the dad walking like in an angry walk down the car park. And I thought, well, that doesn’t look right. Anyway, so I wandered off after him and he’d slid down behind a car and he w 51494o